Update
In the United States, Election Day is approaching! Visit headcount.org/state for all the information you need.
Try This at Home
Go to a reunion.
Happiness Hack
Remember the “dinner party problem”: once a conversation includes five people, it will split into separate conversations.
We mention the book Friends by Robin Dunbar (Amazon, Bookshop).
Know Yourself Better
When it comes to parenting, do you consider yourself more of a “sculptor” or a “lifeguard?”
The Write Way
In honor of our annual challenge, #Write24in24, we discuss our writing inspirations.
Elizabeth mentions the TV show Thirtysomething, and I mention the essay “Charles Dickens” by George Orwell.
I read a passage from this unforgettable essay in the More Happier that aired September 28, 2024.
Demerits & Gold Stars
Elizabeth’s Demerit: She has been procrastinating on writing.
Gretchen’s Gold Star: Thanks to all the thoughtful readers and listeners who sent me a note on October 1, which marks the feast day of my spiritual teacher, St. Therese of Lisieux.
Resource
Need some gift-giving inspiration? Use my Gift-Giving Quiz! When you know whether your gift recipient is an Easy-to-Please, a Tried-and-True, an Enthusiast, or a Connoisseur, you’ll be able to choose the perfect gift. Try it at happiercast.com/quiz.
What We’re Reading
*This transcript is unedited*
[502]
[music]
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to happier, a podcast where we talk about strategies and solutions for building happier habits into our everyday lives. This week we’ll talk about why it’s a good idea to go to a reunion, and we’ll discuss a new parenting distinction that I’ve been pondering as part of my thinking about the open door empty nest stage of life.
Gretchen
I’m Gretchen Rubin, writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature, the five senses, the open door. I’m in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from LA is my sister, Elizabeth Craft and Elizabeth. I love to throw a good distinction at you and ask you to help me think it through.
Elizabeth
That’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in L.A. and yes, scratch. That’s how you get me to know myself better.
Gretchen
That’s what it’s all about.
Elizabeth
Throw those distinctions at me.
Gretchen
Yeah. First, we have a few updates from listeners.
Elizabeth
Yes. This is referring to episode 496. Didi says I enjoyed hearing about the Yale study about social fluidity during the first three weeks after a new group, e.g., college freshman, comes together. I shared it with my college student daughter, who had complained just a few days before about how hard it felt to go to meals without a roommate.
Elizabeth
My daughter acted fairly uninterested. Her typical response when I share the results of studies with her. A few days later, she said she felt sorry for all the people at school who were only hanging out with their roommates because they were going to miss the opportunities to meet other people more easily during the first three weeks. Neither of us mentioned where she’d first learned about it.
Elizabeth
I wonder if you’d consider doing an episode on the care packages that parents could send to college students. It would be helpful to hear from parents who’ve had kids in college about what their kids actually enjoyed receiving. Great idea, great idea.
Gretchen
So first of all, I’d love that. And I know this so much. As a parent, you lob some idea out there and you think nobody’s paying attention, but then you find out how they are listening. So that’s always very reassuring to hear. And I love this idea about care packages. So listeners hit us up for some fresh original ideas.
Gretchen
Now we all know about cookies and we all know about candy. So I think we all know about those. But if you have more unusual ideas, this would also potentially be useful for holiday gift giving. But there is sort of this special care package.
Elizabeth
Yeah.
Gretchen
Practice. So I would love to get a bunch of ideas for that. So Deedee great question.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
And we also want to remind everybody, if you’re in the United States, we have an election day coming up. It’s approaching. And, you know, in the previous episode, we reminded everybody that you can figure out if you’re registered. It’s great to even if you think you’re registered to check that you’re registered. And now your challenge is to consider and choose among your voting options, like, are you going to wait in line or are you going to vote in advance?
Gretchen
What do you want to do? And so you can go to head count.org/state and learn all your options for your state. Sometimes people are like, oh well, my vote doesn’t count. What’s one vote? But it’s really important that people vote. This is a way that we show that we’re involved. Elizabeth, you and I, we talk all the time about what?
Gretchen
It’s such a value for us. And I have to say, I went in to the New York state election site, and I requested an early mail ballot, and I got a thing back saying like, thank you for submitting. You do not need to take further action. I like it when it’s that. Is that clear? You’re good. Yeah. And then I got a confirmation number and it all took like 10s.
Gretchen
And so I feel like I don’t have to worry about.
Elizabeth
How it’s going to happen.
Gretchen
How it’s going to happen, any of that. Another friend of mine was saying she likes to vote in person. Least I know you like to vote in person, but she’s going to vote early. And she was saying her polling places at the met, actually, so.
Elizabeth
Oh, pleasant.
Gretchen
And again it’s head count Dawgs state. And that’s where you can make sure that you’re registered and get all the information that you need so you can make your plan. Research shows if we make our plan and commit in advance, we’re far more likely to follow through with it. So really make your plan now about how you’re going to make your vote.
Elizabeth
Yes. And then at least in California, once you send in your ballot, they send you texts about when it’s been received and counted. And that feels like a gold star. So you can get yourself a nice gold star, potentially from your state government. I mean, you send that ballot in, we.
Gretchen
Want them wherever we can get them out. Well, this like our try this at home tip is to go to a reunion. And this is inspired because I have my law school reunion coming up in two weeks. And I was just thinking about what a happiness booster. I think that reunions can be.
Elizabeth
So this is so good, Gretchen. You know, I’m going to a high school reunion in a few weeks.
Gretchen
I know, and I’m so I was planning on going to this. I was actually starting to badger people to go to that, because you and I are on the same high school reunion cycle, which is fun, but it’s parents weekend for Eleanor, so I can’t go. So you’ll have to go and get me all the hometown news.
Elizabeth
Yes, I will. And you know, what’s odd is I always go to my high school reunions, or I try to, but for some reason, I’ve never gone to a college reunion.
Gretchen
I think that’s so odd, Elizabeth. I think you would lie. No. Let me make a case for you. Let me try to explain to you why I think you should consider going to your college reunion or any reunion. This could be a family reunion. This could be a work reunion. Unlike in a season of reunions. I just had a work reunion from when Jamie and I both worked at Federal Communications Commission.
Gretchen
I love a reunion. So here, here’s just some of the reasons I got. One is it’s that old thing. Make new friends, but keep the old one is silver, the other is gold. And when you’re grown up, it can be hard to make new friends. And one of the great things to do is to rekindle dormant friendships. And there is something special about these friends from the past.
Gretchen
And you run into them, and those old times come back, and a lot of times you just pick up right where you left off and it’s very exciting to feel like, oh, wow, this friendship is real. It’s not just a friend in the past, but this is somebody who’s a friend of mine now. And also, I don’t know about you, Elizabeth, but with high school and college.
Gretchen
But the way I feel is I feel a sense of rare intimacy with these people from way back in the past, more so than I did with my Federal Communications Commission reunion. Right where there are people where I remember their childhood phone numbers, I remember the names of their pets. I’m deeply interested in their brothers and sisters and their parents.
Gretchen
I could picture their birthday cake or their bedroom. In college. You just went through these intense times together, and I remember there was a time I can’t remember which reunion I was at, but at least in my college, you can stay on campus or you can book a hotel and some people will stay on campus. And a friend of mine had had found out that her dorm room was like, right behind where the band was playing for the 25th reunion.
Gretchen
And she was like, oh my gosh, I’m not gonna be able to sleep, and it’s going to be terrible. And I was like, look, I’m in a hotel room by myself. Why do you just come and stay with me? And this was somebody I might not have seen in like 12 years.
Elizabeth
Right.
Gretchen
But here I was, inviting her to come stay in a hotel room with me, because in a way, I felt an intimacy with her that I don’t even feel with friends now because it was so far back. It’s a special kind of friendship.
Elizabeth
And you lived together, which is just not the same as meeting someone for lunch, right?
Gretchen
And one of the things the research shows is that seeing people just often and frequently really deepens relationships. So you’re right, there’s an intensity there that we don’t get later in life very easily. One thing that we’ve talked about a lot is the value of loose ties. So when we’re looking to get a new job or to switch careers or to learn new information or meet a sweetheart or something, often people who are loose ties bring us more information.
Gretchen
The people who are strong ties, because people who are strong ties tend to know the same things that we know. So they’re not bringing. It’s a lot of new valuable association ends and suggestions. Whereas loose ties bring us a lot of information and reunions, whatever kind of reunion is tend to be full of loose ties because it’s people that you know them well enough to, like, go up and talk to them, but they might live in a completely different part of the country.
Gretchen
They might be in a completely different field. You’re not a strong tie anymore. Yeah. And another thing for me, and this is just kind of my particularity, is I often feel like I’m not that attached to my past. I feel like I’m floating through life, and I worry that I’m not staying connected to the people in places that are important to me.
Gretchen
So I put a really high value on returning. Like every time I go back to New Haven, I’m like, I’m going to walk by your side. I’m going to walk by. My freshman year window. I’m going to go back to my favorite coffee shop and see if it’s still there. I’m going to go to the library. I feel this power, and I feel the sense of growth that I’ve gotten because I’m like, oh, I’m still the same person, but look at all the adventures that I’ve had since.
Gretchen
And then the final thing I would say, and this is on a practical level, it’s just so fun to go to reunions because there’s so much to talk about, because there are all these people around and you’re like, yeah, did you hear about this person? And what about that person? And have you seen this person? And what about this?
Gretchen
And what about that? Like you’re full of information, like there’s just a lot going on to talk about. It’s just fun and sort of that catching up way. There’s just so much to catch up on. And I find that to be intensely pleasurable.
Elizabeth
Yes, I do too. And Gretchen, if you’re looking for love, a reunion can be a good place to meet somebody.
Gretchen
I have a friend who met somebody that she didn’t know in college, and then they ended up getting married. There you go. And here’s another thing. So if you have a group of friends from a work place or college or law school or high school or whatever, and you’re trying to get together, it can be really hard to find the date.
Gretchen
It’s just very, very hard to find a date. The nice thing about a reunion is you’re not picking the date, you know, a year in advance. That’s a date, and it either works for people or it doesn’t. It sort of gives people something to organize around. And so even if you’re not that interested in seeing everybody else, it’s kind of a good way.
Gretchen
If you’re the kind of person who has the core group of friends that they want to see, it gives you a reason to be in a certain place at a certain time. It gives you a certain kind of structure and something to do, rather than like, let’s just pick a random weekend in Chicago because it’s the middle of the country, or sometimes you just need something to organize around.
Gretchen
And this is impersonal. Nobody has to worry about, well, is it more convenient for this person or that person is just like it is what it is, and we’re going to organize around it.
Elizabeth
And Gretchen, if you have social anxiety, it’s good because it’s structured. So it’s like you know exactly what to do. You don’t have to just go up and make it all up. It’s there for.
Gretchen
You, right? With my reunions, there’ll be talks, panels and performances and things. And so if you’re there, like I often go by myself. And so if you’re just sort of don’t know what to do with yourself or you haven’t found somebody that you were friendly with, I would just go to a talk and then you run into people or something.
Gretchen
But again, it’s like you sort of have something to do with yourself. And so I like that structure.
Elizabeth
All right, Gretchen, you’re inspiring me. I want to see when my next big college reunion is. I’m going to commit to going, and I’m going to tell my friends I’m going. And then maybe if I commit, they’ll commit.
Gretchen
That’s great. Well, let us know if you do try this at home and how attending a reunion works for you. What are your thoughts? Let us know on Instagram threads TikTok Facebook. Drop us an email at podcast at Gretchen rubin.com. Or as always, you can go to the show notes. You can go to happier Cars.com slash 502 for everything related to this episode.
Elizabeth
Coming up, a conversation happiness hack. But first, this break.
[music]
Elizabeth
Okay, grads, we’re back with a happiness hack.
Gretchen
So this is really interesting and has to do with conversation. It’s sometimes referred to as the dinner party problem. But what it holds is that there is this remarkably consistent phenomenon that for people can have one conversation, but the minute that a fifth person joins the conversation will start to split, because four people will talk together. But the minute that there’s five, it’s very hard to keep it consistent.
Gretchen
Now, of course, you can be in a situation where someone’s lecturing in a seminar, you know, and like, we’re going to have a discussion, but everybody’s going to be silent when the one person has the floor. Or sometimes you’ll be at a gathering and they’ll say, well, this is a one conversation evening. And so we’re really all going to try to keep it one conversation.
Gretchen
But I will say, having done this, it takes a lot of effort.
Elizabeth
Yes. To keep people on task.
Gretchen
Yeah. Because there’s a very natural impulse to split. But here’s where I thought an interesting hack for thinking about social events comes in. So I was reading this very interesting book called Friends by Robin Dunbar, and this is a lightly edited version of his observation. These natural limits on the size of conversation groups are largely responsible for the traditional size of dinner parties, and even the size of dining tables for people is perfect.
Gretchen
6 or 8 are also okay because they add variety of opinions, and a single table can accommodate two or perhaps three separate conversations switching from one another. But more people than that means that the table has to be so large that conversations across it become impossible, and you end up being stuck with just the people either side of you.
Gretchen
Moreover, it is very easy for someone to get stuck between two conversations and end up with no one to talk to. And he points out that if you think about events where people are often at large tables, it’s because they’re not really meant to be just talking the whole time. But a lot of the time they’re either listening to toasts or maybe a speech, or they’re getting up to mingle or to dance or whatever.
Gretchen
And I just thought that this was a really interesting observation about what makes certain social situations more fun or less fun to navigate.
Elizabeth
Yes. Very interesting. I mean, I can think when I’m at a big round table at an event, often I don’t even meet the people across the table, right? Like they may as well be at a different table.
Gretchen
Well, and it is really tricky because if it’s three people having a conversation, one person in the middle and the two people on either side leaning in, especially if it’s loud. But if you’re stuck on the outskirts of that.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
You are sort of just on your own until the conversation moves around. So I just thought that that was a really interesting insight because it’s just this dinner party problem. It’s funny that it’s just so consistent.
Elizabeth
Yes. All right. Gretchen, now we have a know yourself better question.
Gretchen
Okay, so I’m just in the early stages of thinking through this, but, you know, they say there are two kinds of people in the world. The kind of people that like to divide the world into two kinds of people and the kind of people who don’t. And I’m the kind of people who does. And as I’ve been thinking about The Open Door, aka the empty nest stage of life and thinking about parents and thinking about in particular about the relationship with children, one of the things that occurs to me is perhaps we can divide people into two categories of parenting attitude.
Gretchen
Are you a sculptor or a lifeguard?
Elizabeth
Okay, so explain what each is.
Gretchen
Okay, so if you are a sculptor and of course there’s nuance. I’m not saying that people are 100% one or the other, but overall, if you would describe yourself as a sculptor, you’re a person who thinks, okay, a parent has a really big role in shaping the child, in shaping the child’s values, child’s interests, child’s habits, and with a lot of effort and attention, parents can really cultivate interests and discipline and motivation.
Gretchen
They really are shaping the clay of the child. Then the lifeguard and I recognize that these are like metaphors from completely different parts of life. So if anybody has it more matching metaphors tell me that. I think that these capture the idea well. So a lifeguard is like, hey, I’m on the shore, I am here. If you start to get in trouble, I’m going to jump off my chair and paddle out to you.
Gretchen
But really, I’m on the sidelines. You’re out there, you’re doing your strokes, you’re paddling around, you’re doing your thing. I want to be here to protect you. But maybe I’ll be, like, cheering you from the sidelines. But basically you’re out there swimming and I am not influencing it all that much because you’re out there swimming and I’m watching from the sands.
Gretchen
So listen, would you say that you are more of a sculptor or more of a lifeguard?
Elizabeth
Yeah, Gretch, I think I try to be a sculptor and really get in there, and I get pushback that he wants me to be more of a lifeguard.
Gretchen
Well, I think sometimes too, that people think that they’re sculptors, but they’re basically trying to sculpt a child the way a child would naturally be. You’re really sporty. So you’re like, oh, I’m going to make my child take a lot of sports lessons. But then maybe your child is sporty two, right? So you feel like you’re doing that.
Gretchen
But maybe even if the parents weren’t sporty, that child would still be interested in sports. We both love to read. Our parents love to read, but did they make us love to read? Or do we just naturally love to read?
Elizabeth
Exactly. I find it is very hard to make somebody do something they don’t want to do. Yeah, as much as I might want to.
Gretchen
Yeah, you can’t push a rope is the proverb that I often invoke. But I will say that one thing is, I definitely feel like I’m a lifeguard. You get what you get and you don’t get upset. And people do best what comes naturally. And that’s my philosophy. But I will say in my actual parenting, I think that sometimes, while I might not take the credit for something that my children do, I might give myself the blame and feel like, well, I should have been more this or that, or done this, or had this message.
Elizabeth
Or.
Gretchen
Inculcated this better. You know, there’s things that you can drill into your child like take off your shoes when you come into the house. We’re talking about more like general, bigger things about a person’s nature, right?
Elizabeth
You can’t just say, here’s a pad of paper and some pastels. Become an artist, right? You can set the stage, but right. You’re not going to make a non artist an artist or.
Gretchen
That’s what we believe, right. Because we’re lifeguards. But maybe sculptors really believe that you could do that. Well. So anyway I’m just starting to think this through. I’m starting to ask people like I asked a friend the other day if she was a sculptor, a lifeguard, and she’s like, oh, I’m a sculptor. So that was interesting. She immediately identified that way.
Gretchen
So anyway, I’m throwing this out here and I would love to hear from listeners. Does this ring true for you? Am I missing something big? Do you consider yourself a sculptor lifeguard? How do you think about it again? So as I’m embarking on the Open Door Project, I’m starting to try to understand differences among how people think about these things.
Gretchen
And so, listeners, you are my research assistant. Hit me up with any of your insights and ideas and questions. And I’m pondering.
Elizabeth
Yes, I think some people might say it’s also stage of life. You start as a sculptor and then by the time the kids hit 18, they become lifeguards.
Gretchen
Well, I think that’s an excellent point. That’s something I truly, I had not thought of. Yeah, there might be transitions in parenting for sure. So that already see, here it is. I’ve already learned something. I’m already taking notes and that’s deepening my understanding. So thank you. And now for the right way because 24 is right 24 and 24 where you can write for 24 minutes or 2 to 4 minutes.
Gretchen
Elizabeth, this is very close to our hearts. So let’s talk about favorite examples of writing. Keep ourselves inspired, not books about writing like Stephen King’s On Writing, but something that you and I have found inspiring in our own writing. So I want to say to you, as a TV writer, what is like a source material that has inspired your writing?
Elizabeth
I’m going to say 30 something I did. Yeah, the show.
Gretchen
That surprises me. Elizabeth, tell me more.
Elizabeth
Yeah, well, 30 something was a show about a group of friends who had become yuppies, essentially, yes, young yuppies. And they were navigating the world as they had young children and went from sort of being young, carefree couples to families. And I watched it after I graduated from college. It happened to be a show that was on like a 2 a.m. every night in reruns, and I was in a phase of staying up very late, and so I watched it.
Elizabeth
In fact, I think it may have been two episodes, like 1 to 3. Wow. So I went through and watched the whole series, and that really was coincided with the time that I started thinking about wanting to be a TV writer.
Gretchen
So as you watch, did you find yourself analyzing it in a different way or thinking about it as writing, not just letting it wash over you as a television show?
Elizabeth
I don’t think I thought about the writing as much as I just thought of, like, I would like to be doing that.
Gretchen
Yes, like, oh, this seems like a really fun thing to be part of and to create. Oh, interesting.
Elizabeth
Gretch, how about you? So for me.
Gretchen
One of the writers who I most admire is George Orwell. Not so much for his fiction, which for a lot of people is what he’s most known for. But for his essays. And what I love about George Orwell is he’s always surprising to me. He is the epitome of he chooses just the right word, but a fresh word.
Gretchen
He think he’s heading in one direction and then he just swerves entirely, or he just makes points that you don’t expect him to be invoking. And yet it all works together perfectly. And the George Orwell Foundation has put all the essays online so you can read all the essays, which are amazing. One of my favorites. If somebody wants to like, try one and an essay that I think I’ve read, I mean dozens of times probably is Charles Dickens.
Gretchen
I read a passage from it’s from the More Happier for September 28th about the sausage and the rows of Tolstoy and Dickens, but there’s just all sorts of extraordinary moments in that essay. So I would say for me, it’s George Orwell and particularly perhaps that us.
Elizabeth
Excellent. All right, Gretchen, coming up, speaking of the right way, I give myself the writings of the first to spring.
Gretchen
The wrong way.
Elizabeth
Exactly.
[music]
Gretchen
Okay, it’s time for the medicine gold Stars. And Alyssa, this is your episode to talk about a demerit. What is this writing related demerit?
Elizabeth
Well, Gretchen, it’s a classic podcast and anything Sara and I are in the middle of writing a first draft of a pilot. So it’s really the time when I focus on just writing and nothing else. And I just having procrastination issues. I think part of it is getting back into it. As always, the stakes seem so high that you’re really sure, but I need to just knuckle down.
Gretchen
Well and happier in Hollywood. I remember you and Sarah were talking about why writing a pilot is so challenging because everything is being established. It’s not like being at the end of the first season where a lot has been figured out. It’s hard.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So I’m hoping by saying out loud that I’m procrastinating, I will stop procrastinating.
Gretchen
There you go. There you go.
Elizabeth
How about you? What is your gold star?
Gretchen
Well, I want to give this gold star to everyone who’s so nice to send me messages on the feast day of Saint Tropez, which is October 1st. We just passed it. I am not Catholic, but Saint Torres of Lycia is my spiritual teacher. I have read her memoir, story of a soul, many times. I admire Saint Torres so much that it just makes me happy to think that anybody in the world associates me with Saint Torres to be thought of in the same breath as Saint Torres.
Gretchen
It’s exciting to me. And here’s the thing, Elizabeth. I’ve been thinking that maybe one thing that I might do is part of my Open Door project is I might go to Liz. Yeah, because there’s all these sites that you can visit there, and you can see her things, and there’s just a lot there because that’s where she came from.
Gretchen
And so I was thinking that could be a really interesting thing to do.
Elizabeth
You have to do that, Gretchen. You must. Yeah. Find the best time of year to go. Yeah. Weather wise.
Gretchen
Oh, that’s a good point. Yeah. Book it. Okay. It would be a really exciting. And I’ve never done anything like that. I guess with Winston Churchill I did go to the war rooms, but I didn’t go there specifically as like, this is a pilgrimage to Winston Churchill, right? I’ve never been the kind of writer that felt like it was really important to see sort of the relics, but with Saint Torres, I mean, she is a doctor of the church.
Gretchen
I feel like that would be really interesting and valuable to do. And I would just love to sort of immerse myself in all things Saint Torres.
Elizabeth
Absolutely.
Gretchen
Okay. The resource for this week. Okay. The holidays are coming up. We’re all starting to think about giving gifts, starting to make those lists. I mean, a great way to get yourself going is to figure out, well, what kind of gifts does a particular person want if you’re stumped. So I’ve created my gift giving quiz so you can find out whether your recipient is an easy to please, a tried and true and enthusiast, or a connoisseur, you’ll get a little report that will give you a lot of ideas, thought starters.
Gretchen
And Alyssa, I find this very useful. What I’m trying to figure out gifts. How about you?
Elizabeth
Yes, and it can also be good to use on yourself because people are always asking, yes, what would you like? And if you do it for yourself, it can give you some ideas.
Gretchen
It really does. It’s funny and you can just take that and have your cars.com slash quiz. Unless that’s what are we reading? What are you reading?
Elizabeth
I’m reading The Wedding People by Allison s patch.
Gretchen
And I am just about to start Ghost by Jason Reynolds. And that’s it for this episode of happier. Remember to try this at home, attend a reunion, or make a plan to attend a reunion. Let us know if you tried it and if it works for you.
Elizabeth
Thank you to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Audacy. Get in touch Gretchen’s on Instagram threads, Facebook and TikTok at Gretchen Rubin, and I’m on Instagram and threads at Liz Craft.
Gretchen
If you like this show, please rate us. Give us this five star ratings. We so appreciate them. Give us a review. People are very guided by reviews and here comes your rhyming reminder because the fluency heuristic is real. If you like the show, tell others you know.
Elizabeth
Until next week, I’m Elizabeth.
Gretchen
Craft and I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
Gretchen
Elizabeth, you are so good at giving gifts. Have you started making your lists?
Elizabeth
Not yet. No, I haven’t thought about it yet. I gotta get there.
Gretchen
Well, the thing that I’ve learned from you is that a little customization goes a long way. So I’m in on the hunt for customizable things, because I do feel like that makes it more special.
Elizabeth
We’ll have to have some in our gift guide.
Gretchen
From the onward project.