Try This at Home
Forecast your own foibles.
Happiness Hack
Learn from an expert about the best way to load a dishwasher.
Open Door/Empty Nest
As part of the “open door” phase of our life, Jamie and I took a huge step–something we’ve wanted to do for years. We bought a vacation house. We feel so fortunate, and are so excited.
Listener Question
A listener who is getting divorced asks, “What advice do you and the listeners have for someone going through this life transition? What helped other people move on with their lives and create a warm, wonderful household for them and their children?”
Demerits & Gold Stars
Gretchen’s Demerit: As much as I tried to restrain myself, I did get “snappish” while we were helping my daughter Eleanor to move in for her freshman year of college.
Elizabeth’s Gold Star: Elizabeth gives a gold star to palm trees. They lend an air of glamour to life.
Resource
We’ve heard from many people about how they’re using their Memento Keepsake Journal to document the back-to-school process. The journal is a great way to create lasting memories and create a beautiful keepsake.
What We’re Reading
*This transcript is unedited*
[497]
[music]
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to happier, a podcast where we talk about strategies and ideas for making our lives happier. This week we’ll talk about why it’s helpful to forecast our own foibles, and we will weigh in with some answers on a hot debate that has divided households and generations.
Gretchen
I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits. The Open Door, aka the Empty Nest. Human nature. I’m in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. And Elizabeth, you and I share a few foibles.
Elizabeth
That’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in LA. And one of the foibles we share is Hostess Neurosis.
Gretchen
That is not even one of the foibles I was thinking of. We do share that foible and several others. But before we jump in, we want to let everybody know that we are introducing a new segment for this next year. So stay tuned for later in the episode for that.
Elizabeth
Yes. Very exciting.
Gretchen
This week I tried this at home tip is to forecast your own foibles.
Elizabeth
So again to explain what this means.
Gretchen
Okay, a foible is a minor fault or eccentricity. So what is helpful is if you and this goes to self-knowledge, which we talk about all the time, which is when we recognize something that is true about ourselves or, you know, maybe a foible that we often display or a loophole we often invoke or whatever it might be. When we know ourselves and think about ourselves, we can imagine what might happen in the future and set ourselves up better for success.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So, Gretchen, what made you start thinking about this? I think it was prompted by an event in your life.
Gretchen
Yes. Well, as I have talked to us many times, Eleanor is through the open door. We moved her in. It was sort of a huge family milestone. And before we left, it was very funny. There was sort of this webinar about moving and orientation, and one of the students said they were talking about this advice and that advice, and what do you need?
Gretchen
And don’t bring this. And and then she said, just try not to squabble, you know. And I was like, that is good advice. And here are the foibles of mine that are likely to come up, which indeed they did. I could anticipate that I will get rattled if I think that we’re breaking a rule. This is part of my upholder nature, I think.
Gretchen
So for us, it was like, you have 20 minutes to unload your car, and then you were really supposed to move it. And I was like, if I feel like it’s moment 21, or maybe it’s minute 18, but I’m worried that we’re not going to be done, I’m going to start becoming frantic. This is not brain surgery. If it takes 22 minutes, that is fine.
Gretchen
So I gave myself this talk like, don’t get overly focused on this time. Also, I kept saying to myself that I may want to hurry. There is no need to hurry. We have plenty of time. If people like Jamie are kind of wandering off and are not being absolutely as productive as I think they could be, that’s okay.
Gretchen
I don’t want to start snapping. That is what I do when I get anxious or whatever. I start to snap. And I thought, you know, I just don’t want to look back on this day and regret the way I behaved. We have plenty of time. I don’t want to cast a shadow on the day for Eleanor. I don’t want to take it out on Jamie.
Gretchen
Which I have to say, I often do. If I’m getting rattled, I start blaming him. And so by anticipating the kinds of things that I was kind of likely to do that are not me living up to my ideal self or not me being the kind of family member that I want to be in the circumstance. I wanted to give myself a pep talk and remind myself of what really mattered to me.
Elizabeth
So, Gretchen, I have to ask, how did it go? Did you manage to be the self you wanted to be in this big.
Gretchen
Elizabeth
Rite of passage moment?
Gretchen
Not 100%. I would say there were some low points, but I was a little laughs at it. I was able to say like, okay, here I go. But like one of the things that was really helpful to me is I was like, people matter more than process. So when Elena’s roommate’s parents were in the room, I’m like, okay, I can stop and talk to them instead of being like, oh my gosh, I just have to be so focused on my task.
Gretchen
I can’t think about anything else because the people are more important than the process. Eleanor was like, can we take a break and like, just go get a cup of coffee? And I was like, of course we can. You want to take a break? Let’s take a break. Let’s just gather your thoughts, collect yourself, then we’ll come back because there is no hurry.
Gretchen
There is no hurry. But I get this thing where I’m like, we get a rush. We got to get through the to do list. And then that brings out the worst of me. So I think I did do a much, much better job by giving myself sort of this cheerleading pep talk and just being very frank about what my character pitfalls are.
Gretchen
I know that very well about myself. Everybody around me also that you can attest to. Everybody around me knows this. This is how I do. So it helped.
Elizabeth
Good, good.
Gretchen
How about you, Elizabeth? Can you think of some of your foibles? I can think of some of your foibles.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Gretchen, this really applies to me with traveling. So I know.
Gretchen
Me, too.
Elizabeth
That when I have to get on the road, especially if I’m with other people, namely Adam and Jack, my son. Yeah, I get extremely overwrought about time. And getting to the big thing is really getting to the gate at the airport. And I’ll start getting stressed about it three days in advance. Yeah. And marching around and saying, you know, we’re going to have to leave on time for the airport this trip and all of that.
Elizabeth
And I know this and even to the degree that Adam will say on our way to the airport, you know, that you’re going to end up apologizing for how stressed you are and making us all stressed. Why don’t you just not do it now? It sounds so.
Gretchen
Easy when you put it.
Elizabeth
Like, I know, I know. But of course I’m thinking. But you know what you know caused us to be ten minutes late to the car, etc., etc.. So I can’t say that I have again conquered this, but I am going to. I just got tickets for us to come to New York. Yes. For Thanksgiving.
Gretchen
You get your tickets?
Elizabeth
Good. Yes. That’s our next kind of big family trip. I am going to really try to make it all a pleasant experience by forecasting my foibles. Yeah, and maybe giving us an extra half an hour. Known only to me. That would probably help.
Gretchen
That’s a great idea. And I find that part of it also, and I think this works for both of us, is is by recognizing it and saying like, okay, well, even if I do it, can I have a sense of humor about it or can I frame it in a way that sets it up as lighthearted? So I’m still badgering or whatever, but I can have a lighter tone.
Gretchen
I feel like when you have a little bit of distance, you can think about, okay, well, there might be better ways to put it or a way to frame it. Like, please, just can we just put me out of my misery and just, you know, just whatever it might be? But by anticipating it, we set ourselves up better for success.
Gretchen
Yeah. And if you can’t avoid your foibles, maybe you can minimize your foibles or partly avoid your foibles or do whatever it might be. Whereas if it comes at you unawares, it’s at least for me. That’s when it brings out the worst in me.
Elizabeth
Yeah, and we both mentioned things about sort of rushing or wanting to be on time or getting through things, but it could be anything. You could be someone who doesn’t do something on time and that’s your foible. Or you could be someone who curses in front of the wrong people, and that is your foible, or makes inappropriate jokes or you know what I mean.
Elizabeth
We all have our different foibles. It’s knowing what yours are and what you want to be aware of.
Gretchen
Right, exactly. Well, that’s an excellent point. I would love to hear what comes to mind, what foibles they’re trying to forecast. Yeah. So let us know if you do try this at home and how forecasting your own foible works for you. Let us on Instagram, TikTok threads, Facebook. Drop us an email at podcast at Gretchen rubin.com. Or as always, you can go to the show notes.
Gretchen
This is happier cast.com/497 for everything related to this episode.
Elizabeth
Coming up, we have a happiness hack related to an issue that has been dividing families for years. But first, this break.
[music]
Elizabeth
Okay, Gretch, we are back with this week’s happiness hack reveal.
Gretchen
Okay, this is that divisive issue. Is there a best way to load a dishwasher? And if so, what is that best way to load a dishwasher?
Elizabeth
Yes, this is an issue that many couples in particular have, I think. Or roommates. Yeah. How do you load the dishwasher? And it reminded me when we were talking about it, Gretchen, of a really funny meme. That is, in every relationship, there’s one person who stacks the dishwasher like a Scandinavian architect and one who stacks it like a raccoon on crystal meth.
Elizabeth
And that just made me laugh.
Gretchen
That’s very funny. Okay, so this advice is completely taken from a Washington Post article called The Best Way to Load a Dishwasher and they consulted with the experts, so I will post a link in the show notes. Again, it’s happiercast.com/497. If you want to read the whole thing, we want to give them credit because this is where we’re getting the information.
Gretchen
And they consulted with Jessica Ek from the American Cleaning Institute about the guidelines for how and where to load items most effectively.
Elizabeth
So plates load these in the bottom rack so they aren’t touching one another.
Gretchen
Bowls. They can go in the top or bottom rack. Just make sure they’re angled down with enough space to let the water reach them and clean them.
Elizabeth
Pots and pans. Yes, you can put these in the dishwasher. If there’s room, place them in the bottom rack where the water is hotter and has the most pressure to get anything baked on during cooking. As with bowls, they should be angled down and have some space around them.
Gretchen
Okay, glasses and mugs. This I found very interesting. Always load glassware and mugs in the top rack. Okay, because a lot of times I will put them in the bottom rack. Place glass is facing down between the tines, but not over the tines because putting them over the tines can put more stress on the glass. And that makes it more likely to get damaged.
Gretchen
And I have to say this has happened to me. I put them on the tines and then when I unload the dishwasher, the glass will have like broken into. I did not realize that was possibly because of the tines plastic.
Elizabeth
These items should go on the top shelf because the water pressure and temperature are lower, meaning there’s less potential to damage or deform the plastic. So I didn’t know that. I didn’t.
Gretchen
Know that. Okay. Silverware. So here’s a question. If you put handles down they get cleaner because the dirty parts are more exposed to water. But if it’s a sharp thing, you might want to have the handles up so that you don’t stab yourself or have somebody else stab themselves when they’re reaching in to collect them. So that’s like, what’s more important to you, given what you’ve got your loading there.
Gretchen
And there’s also the reminder that if you have spoons, make sure that they have an accidentally caught nested with each other because they won’t get clean if they’re, you know, right up against each other.
Elizabeth
And then finally, don’t overload the machine. If you have things that are overlapping one another or there isn’t a lot of space between them, it’s better to save some things for the next load, she says. Dishwashers use far less water than people think. An Energy Star machine uses about three gallons per load, the rough equivalent of running the faucet for about a minute and a half.
Elizabeth
So it’s okay to run a load when the machine isn’t full. EC uses what she calls an eight dish rule in determining whether to wash the extra dishes by hand. If you’re washing more than eight dishes, it’s more efficient to run the dishwasher than wash by hand.
Gretchen
Let’s see. I find this fascinating because yes, absolutely. And this is relevant to us kind of now that we’re in this open door phase and we’re not having as many dishes. Yes, I wait until the last possible minute where I’ve gotten everything covered with a dish, but then I would also often end up washing things by hand. So it’s this, to me, very counterintuitive.
Gretchen
I think of it as using tons and tons and tons of water. So I found that to be very helpful. Also, the reminder of things never to put in the dishwasher, which is cast iron, good knives or wood, and then with crystal and delicate glassware and old China that can get damaged. So I guess it’s whether you want to take the risk or not.
Gretchen
This is definitely going to change the way I load the dishwasher.
Elizabeth
Yes, the tines thing with glasses is something that I definitely didn’t know a lot of this I already did, but it is funny because again, with the household thing, sometimes I open the dishwasher and I’m thinking, what happened here?
Gretchen
Right?
Elizabeth
It looks like there was some sort of tornado in the dishwasher. Why are things akimbo? Like, okay.
Gretchen
But so here’s the thing. The reason that I load it very, very neatly is because you can get more things in there. And if you do it in this higgledy piggledy way, you can’t fit as much. But the fact is, maybe that’s fine, because you just run it slightly more often and you’re still better off doing that than washing things by hand, because I think that’s like for the people that are more on the Scandinavian architect end of the spectrum, it’s about fitting stuff in.
Elizabeth
Yes. Yeah.
Gretchen
So that’s interesting.
Elizabeth
Very interesting information.
Gretchen
So I’ll post a link in the show notes. And now for our new segment. Let’s unveil it.
Elizabeth
Yay new segment. It’s been a while since we had produced a brand new segment.
Gretchen
Yes. And I’m really excited about this one. So this is called Open Door, Empty Nest, open Door is how I’m rebranding the empty nest. But I still throw the empty nest in there because everybody knows what that is. So it’s going to be ideas, insights, suggestions, tips, updates, all about the open door empty nest phase of life. And this is one of the things that I found now that I’ve sort of announced to people that I am going to do a big project on this, is that many people feel a lot of anticipatory anxiety about this stage of life, even people who are like, oh, I have a newborn home from the hospital.
Gretchen
And I’m already like, weeping when I think of like having this kid go off to college. And so I think there a lot of people are interested in it, even though it’s not really something that’s on the horizon for them in the next year.
Elizabeth
Oh, yeah. I mean, Adam has absolutely my husband been dreading this for years and Jack still got another four years.
Gretchen
Yeah, the days are long, but the years are short.
Elizabeth
All right. Gretchen, well, I know you took a big step in your open door journey. Tell us what it is.
Gretchen
Well, very fittingly, with the idea of an open door metaphor, we have bought a house outside New York City, a place for the weekends in Westchester. So this is super exciting. Now, this is sort of a dream come true. We had thought about this for years. We’ve rented in the summers and now it’s all come together. But I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’re making this move now.
Gretchen
Now that we’re in this new phase of life.
Elizabeth
Well, isn’t it counterintuitive, though, that, like, you have fewer people? Yeah, in the house, but now you have more house.
Gretchen
That is an excellent point. And here’s how we thought about it. So for years when we we were thinking about a house, several people warned us, hey, it’s better not to do it when you have teenagers because teenagers are going to want to be in New York City over the weekends. And unless you’re the kind of parent who is okay with your children staying in New York City by themselves, you’re going to have to set yourself up for a lot of family conflict.
Gretchen
And we are not that kind of parent. So we thought, you know, it’s probably not that great a timing. So that was one factor. And also I think with Eleanor, this last year was her gap year. She was away so much. We finally had the mental bandwidth to really think about it, to really focus on it, to spend time on it, like looking and deciding on this big undertaking.
Gretchen
You know, it is a huge undertaking. We were I went through a period, as you know, I went through a period where I was kind of in shock, I would say, of having done it, and it took a while. I was really excited. Then I was in shock then. Now I’m really excited again. But I think this is it’s really a good time because now Jamie and I have this, this new thing to do as a couple.
Gretchen
It’s like a new undertaking. We have problems to solve. We have decisions to make. We love going there together. It’s like a whole new place for us to explore and get to know. And so it’s giving us a lot of new excitement for the two of us.
Elizabeth
Yes. And you’ve been in New York forever, so you’ve always been in an apartment? Yeah. So this is a house. Your first house together? Yes. And it is that living in an atmosphere of growth that you always talk about.
Gretchen
Well, yes. And I really want to bring that into it exactly as you say it. Like I have all these fantasies that I’m going to be doing watercolor. Okay. We’ll see. But also so it’s on a lake, which is amazing. That’s part of the reason we love this house. And the previous owners left their kayaks. They had two kayaks.
Gretchen
They left them for us, which was so thoughtful. And I’ve decided every single day that we are there. If it’s not freezing cold, because I do suffer from the cold, I’m going to go out even for like ten minutes on the kayak and just participate in the likeness of it. And so I feel like this is going to be a whole new part of my identity as somebody who who kayaks.
Gretchen
So anyway, I felt like this phase of life gave us the bandwidth to tackle this and to enjoy this and to think about this.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And I think it’s nice to have something to replace kind of all of your mom duties. Right?
Gretchen
Right.
Elizabeth
Not so you don’t still have mom duties because you always will, but it’s just at a totally different level. And now all that sort of energy you’re used to spending, you can expand on this other thing that will also bring a lot of joy to everybody in the family, including me. I think I mentioned going to New York for Thanksgiving.
Elizabeth
We’re all going to have Thanksgiving with your in-laws as well. Yeah, at your house in Westchester.
Gretchen
Well, listen, it’s so funny because when you hosted Thanksgiving, I was like in my mind being like, well, that will never be me because I will never do it. And then we got the sense of like, I’ll do it. Yeah. And that’s exactly what am I saying? Yeah, of course I feel incredibly fortunate. Incredibly lucky. Like not a single day that we deal with this, that I’m not like, oh my gosh, we are so, so, so lucky.
Gretchen
Another thing that makes it really lucky is because Eliza is she’s in graduate school now, but she’s in New York City. And so I’m like, well, this is good because this is an appealing place for Eliza, too. Yeah. And she loves it. So anyway, I don’t think that the timing is accidental, and I feel so fortunate that we’re able to add this into the mix.
Gretchen
As the door opens, one door closes, another door opens. And this is a door for us.
Elizabeth
Yes. Well, I look forward to getting to know, country. Gretchen, this will be a whole new year with me.
Gretchen
Both.
Elizabeth
But I would be fun to explore.
Gretchen
Yeah. Was like, maybe I’ll identify birdsong. Like, who knows? All things are possible. Guess. And now for a listener question, this is a question for listeners. So Katie has a question and we are throwing it to listeners. So listen and get in touch if you have some suggestions for Katie.
Elizabeth
Katie says I’m getting divorced after 19 years of marriage. I just got a full time job after 15 years as a stay at home mom, and I’m moving from our house to an apartment in a few weeks. I know this is the perfect time to establish some new habits and mindsets, but I’m so overwhelmed with the logistics of everything that I can’t think of what I should try.
Elizabeth
My boys are 12 and 15 and they’ll be living with me half the time. I really want to involve them in creating our new life together. What advice do you and the listeners have for someone going through this life transition? What helped other people move on with their lives and create warm, wonderful households for them and their children?
Elizabeth
I love the show and I’ve been listening since the beginning, so I know listeners are going to have amazing suggestions for Katie.
Gretchen
Yeah, well, this is interesting to me because, you know, I’ve been thinking about traditions and again, like traditions for this open door phase of life. But this is interesting too, which are what how do you think about traditions and like in your household when they’re going between two different places? And so I think listeners are going to have a lot of really interesting, useful suggestions about how to handle this, because this is a very, very common challenge that people face.
Elizabeth
Yes. And new traditions are great because there’s something everybody can sort of rally around and get excited about.
Gretchen
Yes, a new tradition is an oxymoron, but it is a very powerful thing. So just bust out and start your own traditions. And and it’s surprising how enthusiastically people will often join in.
Elizabeth
Okay. Coming up, Gretchen gives herself, demerit related to the open door. But first, this break.
[Music]
Elizabeth
Okay, Gretch, this episode you’re up with happiness DeMerit.
Gretchen
Okay, so I’m going to. I’m going to put a little more color on my foible. Paint a picture for people. Because this was the demerit that I earned. Then I kind of got a grip on myself. Okay, so it’s moving day. Our slot is 8 to 10 a.m. and so we’re having breakfast beforehand, and I can tell from Eleanor’s mood that she does not want to talk about what’s going on.
Gretchen
And I’m just like, okay, this is the time where we just sort of make light conversation about something else. So I’m casting about in my mind for something. And so I say to Jamie, oh, you know, you never really told us about that conference. Like, did anything interesting happen there? And he’s like, nope. In this, what I would say is kind of a snarky way.
Gretchen
And in my mind I’m like, okay, where’s the yes and man. And so but did I say something lighthearted back? Did I make a joke of it? Did I just move on to a different subject of conversation? I was just like, I really said something extremely snarky back. I don’t even remember exactly what it was, but I mean, to the point where Eleanor’s like, please, let’s not get into this now.
Gretchen
And whatever. It was a little bit sulky there for a second. It passed very quickly, I think, and it was a good reminder for the whole rest of the day. There was a moment where we had some tension around bed risers that again, we had to, like, manage the family. It also passed, but it was definitely the kind of thing where usually it wouldn’t have been a problem, but it was in the moment.
Gretchen
My snapishness, my desire to control and have everybody play their part the way I wanted them to play their part, led to behavior that wasn’t wasn’t optimal. So I get myself that to right.
Elizabeth
Well, it may have been a stumble preventing a fall. That moment may have kept you from, you know, 100 moments. But yes, we have a clear sense of how people should play their roles. Yes. That’s it. That is so true. And to us it seems obvious.
Gretchen
Yes, and not burdensome. It’s just like, you know.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
Not this is no imposition. Yes. This is just people behaving properly.
Elizabeth
Well, I think that’s something we need to explore more because I think that is a huge insight.
Gretchen
Yes. Yeah. Well, maybe that’s one of the reasons we get along, Elizabeth, is that our expectation for each other match so closely because we were raised together. We know each other so well, so that we don’t spark this in each other’s way. Sometimes happens with others.
Elizabeth
Yes, I think that is absolutely true.
Gretchen
Okay, so more self-examination to come. But Elizabeth, in the meantime, what is your gold star?
Elizabeth
Well, Gretchen, I am giving my gold star to palm trees this week. Okay, no.
Gretchen
Totally different. Because.
Elizabeth
You know, I live in Los Angeles. We have many, many, many palm trees. In particular, there are three palm trees in our backyard, which is one of the things we fell in love with in our house that just so happened to kind of, in our minds, represent Adam, Jack and me.
Gretchen
Oh, that’s so nice.
Elizabeth
And like a triangle of huge palm trees.
Gretchen
Yeah. You put Christmas lights on them, right?
Elizabeth
Yes. Which is so great. They just add to the glamor of life. You know, I really enjoy life having some glamor to it, which you wouldn’t know from how I dress or don’t decorate and don’t do all these things that are glamorous, but I do love a little glamor and palm trees to me equal glamor. And so I love just seeing them around and having them in my life and living somewhere with many, many palm trees.
Gretchen
I will never see a palm tree the same way again. I now have a new appreciation for the glamor of palm trees. And it is. It’s such an LA thing or a Southern California thing. It really does feel special. Oh, that’s so nice.
Elizabeth
Yeah.
Gretchen
Now the resource for this week, it is, fittingly, the Memento Keepsake Journal. If you are trying to keep track of keepsakes, we’ve heard from many people about how they’re using their memento. Keepsake journals was part of the back to school process, which is such a fun idea if you’re going to keep one for every school year, or maybe for college or whatever it is, it’s a really good way to keep things organized.
Gretchen
It makes a beautiful keepsake. But the original inspiration I had for the Memento Keepsake journal was from something that my grandparents gave to Elizabeth in me. You know, was it that thing where we put our report cards and our birthday invitations and our school photos and everything, and it’s just to this day I can easily put my hand on, like everything related to like seventh grade.
Gretchen
It’s so satisfying. So if you keep a memento journal like this, by the end of the year, you’ll have a whole curated book with all the mementos to help you look back on in years to come. And so if this sounds interesting to you, go to have your Cars.com slash memento and you can see what this book looks like.
Gretchen
It’s kind of it’s an unusual thing. It’s very specifically designed for this purpose. I love it.
Elizabeth
Yes, it’s very cool.
Gretchen
It’s very satisfying. It’s like you have exactly the right place to put things. Elizabeth, what are we reading? What are you reading?
Elizabeth
I’m reading. Cue the Sun The Invention of Reality TV by Emily Nussbaum.
Gretchen
And I am reading Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson. And that’s it for this episode of happier. Remember to try this at home. Forecast your own foibles. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Elizabeth
Thank you to our executive producer, Chuck Reed, and everyone at Audacy. Get in touch Gretchen’s on Instagram threads, Facebook and TikTok at Gretchen Rubin, and I’m on Instagram and threads at Liz Craft. Our email address is podcast and Gretchen rubin.com.
Gretchen
Please rate us. Please give us those five star ratings. Please give us a review. Please follow the show. And even better than all those is to tell other people about the show. And here comes your rhyming reminder. Like what you heard? Spread the word.
Elizabeth
Until next week.
Gretchen
I’m Elizabeth Craft and I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
Elizabeth
So, Gretchen, does the apartment feel quiet?
Gretchen
It does. I mean, it’s still early days. This just happened. But it does have a different vibe to it. Even from when Eleanor has been gone away for summer camp or traveling. It feels different knowing that she’s. That we’ve passed this milestone. It’s just there’s a really a different atmosphere. It’s interesting.
Gretchen
From the onward project.