Update
We mention Olivia’s Book Club podcast, where I was recently a guest. Fun fact; Olivia Fierro is Elizabeth’s sister-in-law.
Listeners, I want to know more about you. If you have the time and inclination, it would be a big help if you fill out this brief survey. As a thank-you, we’ll randomly select ten people to receive a $25 gift certificate to the Happiness Project shop, and one person will receive a $75 gift card.
Try This at Home
Raise morale by asserting willpower.
This idea comes from a passage in Christopher Isherwood’s memoir, My Guru and His Disciple:
I had given up the habit [of cigarette smoking] with difficulty in 1941, because I was upset about my parting from Vernon and wanted to raise my morale by asserting my willpower.
Happiness Hack
If you’re considering where to move, consider a place only if you have three compelling reasons to move there.
Deep Dive: Listeners’ Advice About a Rebel Father
In episode 429, we discussed a listener’s question about how to communicate with her Rebel father, a former basketball coach and award-winning teacher who now has late-stage Parkinson’s, and is unwilling to use a wheelchair and a medical-alert necklace.
Listeners had many terrific suggestions for addressing this challenge.
To find out if you’re a Rebel, Questioner, Obliger, or Upholder, you can take the quick, free “Four Tendencies” personality quiz here. Or read my book The Four Tendencies.
Demerits & Gold Stars
Gretchen’s Demerit: I wish I’d taken more photos when I was at my recent college reunion.
Elizabeth’s Gold Star: Elizabeth gives a gold star to her son Jack’s English teacher. Elizabeth asked for a conference, and his teacher gave so much time and thoughtfulness to the conversation.
Resources
If you need a gift for Father’s Day (June 18), or for a graduate, take a look at The Happiness Project store — there are many great gift items there. Get 30% off all items by using the promo code JUNE30 at checkout.
Also, from previous experience, I’ve learned that many people give my book Forty Ways to Look at Winston Churchill as a Father’s Day gift.
What we’re reading
433
[Music]
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to Happier! A podcast where we discuss cutting edge science, the wisdom of the ages, lessons from pop culture, and our own experiences about how to be happier. This week we’ll talk about a surprising way to give yourself a boost, and we’ll share listeners fascinating and helpful suggestions for the rebel daughter of the rebel father who doesn’t want to use his wheelchair or medical alert necklace.
Gretchen
I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, the five senses, and human nature. I’m back in my little home office here in New York City. And joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth. Elizabeth, I’ll be seeing you soon.
Elizabeth
That’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in L.A.. And yes, I am coming to New York to go to Elanor’s graduation from high school, where you are going to be giving the commencement address.
Gretchen
Yes, I’m very excited. It’s a big responsibility.
Elizabeth
It really is. I can’t wait. Going to be a big day.
Gretchen
Yeah. And it’s so nice that you can come. It’ll be fun. Visit.
Elizabeth
And then, Gretch, I wanted to mention to everyone another fun thing, which is that you were on my sister in law, Olivia’s podcast, talking about Life in Five Senses. Yes.
Gretchen
She has such a great book club. She’s such a reader. So it’s a huge honor to be included in her book club. And it was so fun for us to be. What are we? We’re like sisters in law.
Elizabeth
Once removed.
Gretchen
Once removed or by marriage or something. Yes. But we definitely it’s definitely feels like family. So it was super fun to talk to her.
Elizabeth
So everyone check out Olivia’s book club, and Gretchen is on the most recent episode. Yeah.
Gretchen
Yeah. And she she really has great taste in books, so you can get a lot of great reading ideas. In other news, I am doing a survey. I want to know more about listeners and readers. How did you find my work? Do you want to engage in ways beyond the podcast? So if you’re the kind of person who doesn’t mind answering a few questions, it would be a big help.
Gretchen
You’d get many, many gold stars if you would take a few minutes to fill out a survey. It’s like 5 minutes. It’s that happiercast.com/survey23. And as a thank you for people doing it, I’ll enter all the people who took the survey into a drawing randomly select ten people to get a $25 gift certificate to the happiness project shop and one person will get a $75 gift card to the Happiness Project shop.
Gretchen
So it’s just like a little, little extra bonus possibly. But anyway, I really do appreciate it. It’s very fascinating to hear from people that’s happiercast.com/survey23 a plus outside 23 in 23 because it’s summer. We’ve been hearing from a lot of people who are like going deep into their hashtag outside 23 and 23. So here’s a fun challenge.
Gretchen
Intriguing cloud shape. Mm hmm. Bonus points for creativity and I’ll repost some of the really good ones. So hashtag outside 23 in 23.
Elizabeth
On social media. Yes.
Gretchen
So this week I tried this at home. Tip is to raise morale by asserting willpower.
Elizabeth
All right, Gretch, you’ve got to explain this one. Yes.
Gretchen
Okay. So, yeah, it’s kind of funny language and it comes from a fascinating memoir by Christopher Isherwood, who’s probably known for writing the book that became the movie Cabaret. So he wrote a memoir called My Guru and His Disciple. And I was particularly struck by this passing remark he made about cigarett smoking. He wrote, I had given up the habit with difficulty in 1941 because I was upset about my parting from Vernon and wanted to raise my morale by asserting my willpower.
Gretchen
And this caught my eye because we think of something demanding, like quitting smoking, which is the classic difficult habit. We think of it as something that’s demanding, draining a big drag. It is. But then you can also reframe it as something that is going to boost your morale. It’s going to make you feel great because you’ve asserted your willpower, and by doing that, you’re going to raise your spirits.
Elizabeth
Yeah, it’s the reframing, Gretch, living in an atmosphere of growth. Yeah. You know, that’s how I do anything hard.
Gretchen
Yeah. You know, you love to reframe and I think that it is this idea that when we ask something of ourselves and we follow through, we get a big boost in our sense of self-efficacy, our sense of control over ourselves, and that we ask ourselves to do something and then we do that. And by doing it, we make ourselves feel great for the very fact that we have done it.
Gretchen
Yes.
Elizabeth
I have a couple of these things. Like what? I was thinking about it. Well, one is I think, you know, my whole I’m going to do Fryman 50 times. Yeah, in 2023. I mean, in a way it takes willpower sometimes to go maybe if I don’t feel like going, but I want to keep raising my numbers. So I go and then I feel good.
Elizabeth
Just the fact that I made myself go, if I’m not in the mood.
Gretchen
It’s the ta-da list.
Elizabeth
Yes. And then Gretch something that’s been helping me during the strike and I mentioned this on happier and Hollywood. But when we talked about this, I was like, Oh, I’m doing that on the picket line, which is I decided day one that I would assert my willpower and not eat any of the many delicious treats that people have been sending to the picket lines.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And I only eat something I myself have brought. And so I will say every day when I walk away and go back to my car, I’m like, Hey, I made it through. I didn’t eat any of those treats. Good for me. And it is a boost and it’s great because it’s a time when I need a boost, right?
Elizabeth
Because the strike is very stressful.
Gretchen
But you’ve raised your morale by asserting your willpower because you’ve made a decision of what you were going to do. Because you know, from past experience that this would be an issue. Yes. And by sticking to it, you feel great. So one of the things I would say is because we’ve talked about this with to do and ta da it’s very easy to get focused on the to do and not take the time to experience the tada that maybe every time you go into your car you really should say to yourself and same thing with for Fryman Canyon and when you’re driving home, it’s like, Wow, well done.
Gretchen
I said I would do it and here I am doing it. I am I am asserting my willpower and I should feel good about that because it is keeping our promises to ourselves. Feels good. Well, for me, Elizabeth, and you’re involved in this one, it’s the whole flossing thing because. Because I had just decided I don’t need to floss, which obviously is totally rational.
Gretchen
I mean, like, I didn’t even include it in my things of balls that I was dropping. I was just like, All right, I don’t think about flossing. So I felt no guilt. But then when you mentioned how you were trying to floss twice a day, because that’s the right thing for you, it made me realize, Wow, I’m not even doing it once a day.
Gretchen
And everybody agrees it’s really a good idea to floss. Yeah. And so now I’m flossing and every day it still feels new. It’s not totally automatic yet. And I’m like, Here I am. I told myself I was going to floss and here I am flossing and I get a lift and willpower from it.
Elizabeth
Is not funny.
Gretchen
So here’s the thing that’s going to serious to me, and I feel like it might come up in this context is that sometimes have you ever had this where you feel very overloaded, you feel like your plate is full, and then for some reason you add something big and new, and instead of feeling more drained, you actually feel better.
Gretchen
You feel that you feel an energy, you feel excitement. You feel like you can do more. Maybe it’s the atmosphere of growth. Yeah, maybe it’s the way things expand to fill the time. And so you can, you can make time if you need to. I don’t know. But I do think that sometimes you actually get a lift. You think, Oh, I’m in a way myself down if I add something.
Gretchen
But actually you’re going to get a lift. Like the balloon will go higher with more sandbags. How is that possible? I don’t know. But I have experienced that.
Elizabeth
We had that discussion a while back about Sarah when she is really busy or stressed, getting a new pet helps her. And we said, why is that getting a new pet, which would seem to make things more difficult, actually makes things easier. Yes.
Gretchen
Right. Yeah.
Elizabeth
I think maybe it’s there’s another place to send that energy, another receptacle for that. I don’t know. Yeah.
Gretchen
Yeah. So it’s fascinating. We will be so interested to hear from listeners. Let us know if you do try this at home and how you raised your morale by asserting your willpower. Let us know on Instagram, Tik-Tok, Twitter, Facebook. Drop us an email at podcast@gretchenrubin.com. Or as always, you can go to the show notes. The show notes for this episode is happiercast
Gretchen
.com/433 for everything related to this episode. Coming
Elizabeth
Up, we have a happiness hack that also involves Gretchen giving herself a gold star. But first, this break.
[Music]
Okay, Gretch, it is time for this week’s Happiness Hack. Tell us what it is.
Gretchen
Okay, so sometimes we give ourselves a demerit because then that helps us to do a better job. So I gave myself a demerit for not remembering to take notes or have paper and pen around during book events, because I would so often get ideas. So because I gave myself the demerit, I now give myself the Gold Star. Because starting from then I did remember to do it and I got a great hack from Michael when I did my event at Joseph Beth’s bookstore in Cincinnati.
Gretchen
He gave a great hack because this is a very common challenge, which is you’re going to move, you’re going to move somewhere in the country and you don’t know where. And how do you decide? Because there’s so many choices, there’s so many factors, it can feel overwhelming. So Michael and his partner faced this question. They were going to move, but they had to figure out where and this was how they approached it, which I thought was really brilliant.
Gretchen
They decided they would only consider places with three compelling reasons for instance, a job offer, friends or family members. So he described a compelling reason as something that created true connective tissue to a place. There had to be three of those four and even to be on the list to be considered.
Elizabeth
Right. And so it wasn’t something like, Oh, it has a great art scene that did not count. It had to be something that rooted them in the place. Yes.
Gretchen
For them, No, it did not. That would not count. And I also asked, did you consider the weather? And he said, no, they did not consider the weather. And I’m not saying that that is the right three like that. They have the right criteria. I’m just saying it’s interesting to say, let’s pick the things that are the most important to us.
Gretchen
So because maybe for someone it would be proximity to hiking would be incredibly important. And so that would be one of them. But I thought it was interesting. It’s obvious, but I had never thought about pick some things and then have a list. And I mean, I think for them they didn’t really even have another option. They were like, Well, this makes it clear.
Gretchen
And I will say, though, they didn’t have kids at that point, and I think that would also factor in. So again, you’d have to pick the right things for you. But it’s this idea of you feel like everything is a choice, but really that’s not true. Probably you could narrow it down dramatically very easily by picking a few key things.
Elizabeth
I think that is so interesting, and one of my favorite things to think about is where would you live if you didn’t live where you live? So I love the idea of just even if I don’t intend to move, just applying a few things and seeing where we would end up in our minds. Because it’s fun. It is fun and it is.
Gretchen
I do think that it’s very important to have relationships. I mean, they had it as two out of their three factors, but in the end, relationships are what make people happier. Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree. So if you have the opportunity to move someplace where you would have relationships in place, that would be an enormous factor.
Elizabeth
So of course, for some people having family, there would be a reason not to go Well, that’s true. That’s true. You know that’s.
Gretchen
True. That’s right. Everybody has to come up with their own. Yes. Good point. Right? Yeah. That’s why nobody can figure it out for you, because what you would weigh and what you value and what your interests are and what you’re trying to avoid would be very different. But I thought that that was just an obvious way. But you could use it for a lot of things, which is pick a few things narrow it down and see where you are.
Gretchen
Yes. And now let’s take a deep dive into listeners answers. In episode 429, we discussed a listener’s question about her rebel father. So this was a rebel daughter of a rebel father. He’s a former basketball coach, an award winning teacher. He now has late stage Parkinson’s and is unwilling to use a wheelchair and a medical alert necklace. And she was asking, do listeners have suggestions about how I can communicate more effectively with my father?
Gretchen
Because I’m really worried about the situation and we got so many very helpful, constructive suggestions from listeners.
Elizabeth
Yes, we did. This first one is from Amber. She says, I’m a nurse that has worked with geriatric and hospice patients for years. I have some advice that I think could really help your rebel listener with her rebel father. My biggest piece of advice is to never make them feel as though you’re speaking down to them, telling them what to do or giving them orders.
Elizabeth
Instead, you should include them in every single decision about their care and invite them to solve problems themselves. When facing a problem, always frame the question as What do you think we should do about this? If possible, let them look to her a catalog and choose equipment and products themselves. The problem is getting solved, but they are in control of their options.
Elizabeth
If they’re resistant at first, simply leave your information behind. Printouts of products you found online medical equipment, catalog, or even simply a list of ideas and let them know you’d like their opinion. This gives them space to calm down and think. And when you speak next, you can simply ask, Hey, did you get a chance to look at that information?
Elizabeth
What did you think? Frame the conversations in a way that lets them have their control back.
Gretchen
Great.
Elizabeth
Great advice.
Gretchen
Yes. And here’s a suggestion from Jennifer. Jennifer says, Hello, rebel here. What idea I thought of to help the daughter is to re-identify her father’s behaviors as the opposite of his preferred identity, whether directly to him or within his hearing. Sometimes that’s more effective with us rebels. Explain that now he’s very dependent on those around him to get up off the floor.
Gretchen
He can’t be left alone long, etc. Let him process that on his own and perhaps he’ll choose to increase his independence using the tools around him like his wheelchair and his necklace as a 1 2 punch. Maybe she can also arrange for him to overhear or hear some good modeling of the desired behavior. Praise. Another man is independent because he can zoom around in his chair.
Gretchen
Rarely falls because of this is very capable because his device is on his neck and he knows how to use it. Sometimes I need the information, but my rebel pride won’t let me act on it if it’s directed right at me. Hence the overhear and no praise for using the chair or wearing the necklace. If he starts instead, maybe a hug and a thank you for being someone strong that you can depend on.
Gretchen
Many rebels say this, don’t praise rebels for doing something because then they feel like you think they’re doing it because you told them to. So you think you’re being encouraging. But actually rebels do not perceive it as encouraging. So that’s something. See, it’s very helpful to have a rebel point of view because I think that’s very surprising to non rebels.
Elizabeth
Yes, you and I would love to get praise. No for doing.
Gretchen
Hundred gold start up. Yeah. Yeah. A rebel feels like, oh, is this doctor’s orders? You think that a doctor can order me around? No, because they want to assert that independence.
Elizabeth
Yeah, Abby said, as someone who works with the elderly population, I see this scenario all the time. It is immensely hard for adults to lose freedom and independence no matter their tendency. I wonder if the listener can get one of the medical professionals at the assisted living to talk to her father about the risks of him breaking a bone.
Elizabeth
Maybe they could phrase it as I work for you as a medical professional at this facility and I’m obligated to inform you of the risks. They can frame it as if you’ve fallen and break a hip, you might never walk again, and that would significantly limit your freedom. Using your wheelchair and wearing your necklace can ensure you don’t sustain a fall that could cause you to have no choices about whether you use the wheelchair or not.
Elizabeth
Right now you have the choice to use or not use certain equipment and are in full control. This is the new challenge to avoid breaking a hip or having an injury that will limit freedom.
Gretchen
And I will say that sometimes with rebels have told me that sometimes you’re in a position where somebody is telling you to do something, but you want that. Like that’s their job is to tell you and you may be you’re given hired them to tell you to do something, but then you resist it because they’re telling you what to do.
Gretchen
And what rebels say is that it’s very helpful to say this person is working for me, this person is doing what I want. So again, it’s that feeling of independence and choice. So I think that was a good idea to include that in the message, which is I’m here to support you, that my job is to help you, because that might make it more palatable.
Gretchen
Lauren had a great suggestion. She writes, There are so many professional wheelchair sportsmen and women out there in all sorts of sport. I am in the UK and Wimbledon has a wheelchair tennis tournament. It might be a good thing to get the dad watching these types of things. I know he’s not so active now, but if he gets into the mindset that athletes use wheelchairs, it might help.
Elizabeth
That’s good. Amanda said, My stubborn, independent and fall prone grandfather also resisted wearing a medical alert necklace. So one year for Christmas, his kids gave him a smartwatch with fall detection and wireless call capabilities that way, he could use voice commands to phone for help from his watch if he fell. Wearing a watch was already something he did all the time, and he tended to embrace technology, so it was a good fit for him.
Elizabeth
Something similar might work for the rebel dad.
Gretchen
That’s kind of a reframing, which is just like, okay, if you don’t want this device, there’s nothing special about the device. Let’s find something that does the same function that maybe in a way is more appealing. Yes, Emily says. Can he lean into his identity as a teacher and coach? The assisted living facility probably has a welcoming committee.
Gretchen
Can he teach people how to settle in there, which will probably encourage him to follow the rules better? There’s probably also a residents advisory board. Being involved with that would probably help him to see the reasons behind some of the rules and if he general genuinely has better ideas, that would be a place to put them forward. Could he coach the facilities, wheelchair basketball or pickleball team that would not only play into his identity, but he’d get more familiar with his wheelchair and helping other people deal with their limitations would probably give him ideas about how to deal with his own.
Gretchen
Similarly, his health care system probably has a patients advisory board or similar, and he might be able to get involved helping people with new diagnoses or making similar transitions. If he was a teacher for many years, surely he dealt with administrations and policies he didn’t agree with. How did he manage himself there? That’s a great suggestion. Think about identity.
Gretchen
Think about connecting to others and also think to the past. What worked in the past.
Elizabeth
Yes. Gretch many readers suggested considering that something else may be going on, Cathy said, In addition to rebel based approaches, I would encourage the doctor to look into whether he is experiencing any cognitive decline slash early dementia. Older adults in this situation will often forget that they can’t just get up out of a wheelchair and walk off, resulting in falls and injuries in the early stages of cognitive decline.
Elizabeth
People are often quite skilled at masking their symptoms. If this situation applies to him, then alternative strategies would be used. Well, a good.
Gretchen
Reminder.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
And then finally, Juliette said, I’ve been in a wheelchair for 25 years and my wheelchair gives me my freedom. A big part of it, however, is finding a wheelchair that feels comfortable. Many of the hospital or standard chairs are super uncomfortable. I would suggest finding a chair that works for the dad, reminding your dad that the chair will actually save him time and give him independence.
Gretchen
So again, it’s like think bigger. Think about what other aspects could be contributing to the situation.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
And so, by the way, if you do not know what we’re talking about with the rebel father and the rebel daughter, you can learn all about the four tendencies and find out if you are a rebel or an upholder, obliger, or questioner by taking the quiz at gretchenrubin.com/quiz or go to my website. There’s so much on my website about the four tenets good by the book about the four tenancies.
Gretchen
But a lot of these I mean as somebody pointed out, a lot of these suggestions work just as well for people who are not rebels. It’s sort of another layer. But a lot of this advice really transcends any particular tendency.
Elizabeth
Absolutely. As always, our listeners have such great ideas. Yes. All right. Coming up, Gretchen gives herself a demerit related to her recent college reunion. But first this break.
[Music]
Okay, gretchen, it is time for demerits and gold stars and you are up this week with a happiness demerit.
Gretchen
Yeah, and this is just classic. So I went to my college reunion. I had an amazing time. New Haven is famous for its bad weather. We had the perfect weather. It was probably, like the most beautiful weekend of the year, and everything was outside, so it mattered a lot. And I saw so many old friends. I saw several of my old roommates.
Gretchen
It was wonderful. I just wish I had taken more photographs. What I’ll do is I’ll get in a photograph mode and I’ll take several photographs, but then I won’t think about it for 8 hours at a time. And I regret it because partly it’s it’s capturing those memories. And then also it’s a visual diary that in years. And I know that in the future it will help me remember, like, Oh, I remember that we went to Atticus.
Gretchen
Yeah, just like we did at the last reunion. Or this friend had never come to a reunion before, so I hadn’t seen him in 25 years or whatever, but I just tuned in and out of it. I wish I had gone into it thinking, okay, remember all the adventures that I had during the weekend?
Elizabeth
Well, here is a question. Did anyone else take photos? Because, you know, you can always send out an email or text saying, will you send me your photos.
Gretchen
The people that I’m closest to didn’t. I took more photos than anybody else.
Elizabeth
Yeah. All right.
Gretchen
And also, what often happens is that one person pulls out their phone and then other people would be like, Oh, that’s great. I’ll take a photo too. So then you have repeated photographs, whereas what you want is photographs of different things. But actually one of my closest friends took a little video of just us walking, and I thought, and that was really fun.
Gretchen
So I wish I’d done that also to capture people’s voices. That would have been really cool. I didn’t even think about that until she sent it to me later and I was like, Oh, that’s so fun to just sort of capture this funny little moment of us walking down the sidewalk. So anyway, it’s just a good reminder. I mean, we often say, Oh, don’t take yourself out of the moment to take photographs, but actually research shows that people often enjoy things more when they take photographs.
Gretchen
And I certainly know for myself, I remember things much better when I take photographs. So at least for me, it is something that adds to my happiness. It doesn’t detract from my happiness, even if it is a bit of a nuisance in the moment. Yeah, but Elizabeth. Take us up. What is your gold star?
Elizabeth
I have a gold star, Gretchen for Jack, My son’s English teacher. Dr. B, we’re getting to the end of the school year, and I have emailed her asking if she would just take time to sit down with me because I wanted to just sort of say, How do you think he’s doing? How do you think his writing is?
Elizabeth
What are we looking at next year? And I’m just giving her a gold star because she responded right away that she would love to sit down with me. She sat down with me. You know, a few days later. And it was amazing because teachers are very busy. They have a lot of parents coming at them, wanting their attention, wanting their time.
Elizabeth
She just had all the time in the world for she just sat down and had a great discussion. She was in no way hurried. She made me feel like she was happy to be there talking about Jack’s year. And it was just so nice and it was a great conversation. I took a lot away from it and I didn’t.
Elizabeth
She didn’t make me feel like a burden, wanting to sit down and talk. Right? And I just give her a big gold star. And I mean, to all the teachers out there, were it is the end of the school year. Thank you to teachers. Yes, Yes. We know it’s not an easy job. Yeah. And it’s it’s so important.
Gretchen
Well, and then it also must have been so lovely for you to realize how great Jack’s teacher was. Yeah, You’re having a lot of conversation. Like, Oh, this is has. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that’s great. Yes. Teachers, we’re coming to the end of the school year. It’s very hectic. Don’t think that we all don’t appreciate everything you’ve done.
Gretchen
Yes, and we do. Yes. Yeah. The resources for this week. Okay. We’ve got Father’s Day coming up. We got graduation season. So on the Happiness Project store, there is 30% off all items in the store and you can use promo code June30 at checkout if you would like to get 30% off any order. So you can go to happiercast.com/store.
Gretchen
And then again, that that code is June30, 3 0. Anything for yourself for a father figure in your life or graduate in your life for anything you can get the at 30% off. And what are we reading, Elizabeth, What are you reading?
Elizabeth
I am reading lessons and Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus.
Gretchen
And I am reading The Dangers of Smoking in Bed by Mariana Enriquez. And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember, try this at home. Raise your morale by asserting your willpower. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Elizabeth
Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reid and everyone at Cadence 13. Get in touch. Gretchen’s on Instagram and Tik Tok at Gretchen Rubin and I’m on Instagram at Liz Craft. Our email address is podcast@gretchenrubin.com.
Gretchen
If you like this show, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend you can just emailed on the link right from your podcasting app. That is how people hear the show. I don’t know what it is if something happened or if it’s just a coincidence, but lately Liz is like, I’ve got five emails in the last couple of weeks with somebody saying like, Oh, I finally got my sister to listen to your podcast and now she’s such a fan.
Gretchen
Or I send it to my coworkers and now they listen too.
Elizabeth
So, Oh, well, maybe because you’ve been asking people to do that.
Gretchen
But we finally got to the tipping point.
Elizabeth
We’ve done it. Yes. Thank you.
Gretchen
Everyone. Gold star, because that really is how people discover this show.
Elizabeth
Until next week.
Gretchen
I’m Elizabeth Craft and I am Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
[Music]
Elizabeth
Gretchen, have you decided what you’re going to wear when you give the commencement address?
Gretchen
No, I haven’t, because, Eleanor, I have this green dress. You saw my green dress. I don’t know that it’s dressy, and Eleanor really likes it, so that’s important. But I don’t know that it’s quite dressy enough. What do you think?
Elizabeth
I would think it is, but I know what you mean. Because the material is maybe not as dressy, but it’s such a gorgeous color, I think.
Gretchen
Yeah, So, I don’t know.
Elizabeth
I think very striking with great jewelry. Like, I think it would be great.
Gretchen
Well, I think I need to maybe have a video call with you and mom and I can hold up the options and we’ll have we’ll let her just as we always do.
[Music]
From the Onward Project.