Update
We’re recording this episode on October 13. With the shocking, terrible events in Israel this week, with the horrifying attacks by Hamas, we’re both filled with anger and sorrow.
Events are unfolding very rapidly, so by the time this episode airs, things may have changed.
It’s hard to reconcile all the pain and violence being experienced in the world with our daily lives, to talk about the kinds of subjects that we usually discuss, given the gravity of what’s going on.
Try This at Home
Identify the problem and consider various solutions for challenging social encounters.
Happiness Hack
To avoid being distracted by notifications, take off your smartwatch during an important meeting or encounter.
Know Yourself Better
Is your birthday a big deal to you, or not?
If you want to see comments on this issue, read here.
Listener Question
A listener who facilitated the Four Tendencies workshop for her team at work asks whether Questioners can experience Questioner-rebellion; her co-worker is a Questioner who rarely participates and never asks questions about her assignments.
We mention the “Four Tendencies” personality framework. If you want to take the quiz to see whether you’re an Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, or Rebel, it’s here.
Demerits & Gold Stars
Elizabeth’s Demerit: Elizabeth gives herself a demerit for not understanding, or paying attention to, the best way to use credit-card points.
Gretchen’s Gold Star: I give a gold star to the podcast The Evaporated: Gone with the Gods.
Resource
Thrilling! The Muse Machine is now available for pre-order and will ship by the end of November.
The Muse Machine is a collection of indirect directions—150 cards with somewhat mysterious creative prompts to consult whenever you feel stuck on a creative project. The directions are short, suggestive, and open-ended,to spark unexpected insights.
I created a messy DIY version for Life in Five Senses, and now there’s an actual item you can order.
What We’re Reading
[music]
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to Happier! A podcast where we talk about ideas for making our lives happier. This week we’ll talk about why we might consider possible solutions to challenging social situations. And we’ll answer a listener’s question about a coworker who never participates in meetings or discussions. I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, the five senses, human nature.
Gretchen
I’m in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from L.A. is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
Elizabeth
Now it’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in Los Angeles.
Gretchen
We are recording this episode on October 13th with the shocking, terrible events in Israel this week with the horrifying attacks by Hamas. We are both filled with anger and sorrow.
Elizabeth
Events there are unfolding very rapidly. So by the time you hear this, things may be different even from how they are now.
Gretchen
It’s hard to reconcile all the pain and violence being experienced in the world with our daily lives. To talk about the kinds of subjects we usually discuss given the gravity of what’s going on.
Elizabeth
Yes, but that is what we will do.
Gretchen
That’s what we’ll do. And along those lines coming up on November 14th is National Diabetes Awareness Day. And for that episode, we are going to go more deeply into Elizabeth’s type one diabetes.
Elizabeth
Yes. So any questions or comments? Send them in and we will address them in that episode.
Gretchen
So Elizabeth, this week our Try This at Home suggestion is to consider these solutions for challenging social encounters.
Elizabeth
So, Gretch, as is so often the case with a happiness stumbling block like a challenging social situation, if we step back, identify the problem and consider how to handle it, we often see possibilities.
Gretchen
But this is my question. Why is it so hard to identify the problem? Because you’re like, I’m dealing with a problem. Of course I have identified the problem, but in fact, at least I find for myself often I have only the vague sense that something is wrong. But is so useful to identify the problem because that often makes a solution much clearer because you see exactly what you need to tackle.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So, Gretchen, speaking of challenging social situation, one thing I’m thinking about is something we’ve discussed before, which is if you’re an introvert, consider going early to an event or be there right on time, which it doesn’t seem like that’s what you’d want to do, but actually it is helpful.
Gretchen
Well, and we got this idea from Susan Kane, who had said that for children and who are more on the introverted side, a lot of times if they go early, then they’re there as things get more and more hectic and more and more people come in so they can feel more in control and get accustomed to it. Instead of emerging right into the heat of, you know, peak event.
Gretchen
And also this way, if you go early, you can see the person who invited you or make your presence known. And then when you’re ready to leave, you can go. So that seemed like a good solution. Yeah.
Elizabeth
And also then early on, the hosts or hostess will have more time to introduce you to people. Yes. So it’s an easier way in.
Gretchen
Right. So, again, it’s not that this is rocket science, but it’s maybe not obvious because I might have thought, oh, it’s better to go later, because then you have more chance of knowing somebody who’s there. Right. If you’re worried about showing up and being alone. But then, of course, it’s peak event and more chaotic. So here are some other solutions that I’ve heard because I’ve been collecting these.
Gretchen
Yes. Okay. So if you have a difficult family and you’re heading into a difficult family situation, let’s say Thanksgiving dinner. Often family members behave better when there’s somebody from the outside there. And so you might consider bringing a guest because you might think, I don’t want to bring a guest because I have this difficult family situations. But it might be that actually everybody gets along better and behaves better if there is somebody from outside of the family who’s there.
Elizabeth
That is a great idea. Another idea, Gretchen, is if one of your guests is somebody who has a memory issues, it can be helpful to have a group of six as opposed to a group of four.
Gretchen
Yeah. And what I’ve heard about this is that because often someone like that, they want to be there. They want to participate in a conversation and have the companionship, but it’s hard for them to participate fully in the conversation. And with four people that can become quite awkward and they might feel on the spot, but with six people, there’s just more general conversation and so they can be there and enjoy being part of the scene and are in when they want and when they can.
Gretchen
But it’s just easier for everyone. And because it’s easier, then more people are inclined to keep up these social situations. And that’s good.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Again, it kind of goes against what you would think, which is fewer people might be easier for a person to deal with, but actually more people can make it easier. And that’s for someone with any kind of illness really, who might not want to participate as much as somebody else. Right.
Gretchen
But they want the companionship and sort of the fun of just being with people. But yeah, they’re finding it difficult to participate. Here’s something a friend of mine just told me this because somebody said, hey, let’s get together for dinner. And the circumstances were that she needed to say, yes, let’s get together for dinner. But she really wanted that dinner to be kept short.
Gretchen
And so the question was, what is the best way to do that? Politely. And she decided that the best thing was to say, like, oh, I’m going to get takeout for us and then bring takeout to their apartment or house. The food is right there. So you don’t have all of the friction of being in a restaurant and then you leave when you want because you’re at their place.
Gretchen
Whereas if they’re at your place, you can’t kick them out. But if you say, Oh, I’m in it, I’ll bring it over to you, that that feels like, Oh, I’m coming to you, I’m bringing food to you. We’ll hang out. It’s an intimate place, but that’s a way to keep it short.
Elizabeth
Nice as they say, Gretch, control your exit.
Gretchen
Oh, yes, control your exit. And here’s another one. I learned this from an event, a big event, but I think it would work really well. A lot of different social situations, including something like a dinner party. So sometimes when you have people over for dinner, you know them really well. And part of the fun of it is just lingering over your coffee and just hanging out and enjoying yourself.
Gretchen
But sometimes maybe you’re in a group of people where they don’t know each other that well, or maybe it’s a group of people where it’s not necessarily friends. And so people might not be that enthusiastic about spending a ton of time seated down where they’ve got the person on one side, the person on the other side. It may be the person across the table.
Gretchen
So what you can do is for dessert and coffee, you can get up and let people mingle. And that way, if someone is eager to continue a conversation, they can just get up and continue the conversation. Or somebody is eager to talk to someone else who’s at the event. They can very graciously seek out new people to talk to.
Elizabeth
The other thing I love about this approach is that if one person leaves, it doesn’t have that effect of making everyone then get up and leave.
Gretchen
You mean leave the event?
Elizabeth
Leave the event. Yes. Right.
Gretchen
Right. Because then as you feel like, well, if I leave, it will start everybody going and I’ll break up the party. But this way somebody can slip out and. Right. Yes. And it’s just nice to kind of get up and move around. A lot of times it just it feels fun.
Elizabeth
Well, Gretchen, I’m hosting Thanksgiving this year, and what I love about this, even though, of course, everybody knows each other, is we have an adult table and the kids table. And I like the idea that for dessert, right? The adults and kids, you know, we can mix it up. Yes. And so we get time to talk to the teenagers, right?
Gretchen
No, that’s exactly right. So let us know if you do try any of these solutions at home and how considering them has worked for you and if you have solutions of your own, we can all learn from each other. It would be great to have a whole list of possible ways to tackle difficult social situations. Let us know on Instagram, Threads.
Gretchen
Tik Tok, Facebook. Drop us an email at podcast@gretchenrubin.com. Or as always, you can go to the show notes. This is happiercast.com/452 where you can find everything related to this episode.
Elizabeth
Coming up, we’ve got a smartwatch hack but first this break.
[music]
Okay, Gretch, we are back with this week’s Happiness Hack.
Gretchen
Yeah. So this hack occurred to me kind of too late. I learned from experience the importance of this hack because I was doing paid speaking on Zoom. Mm hmm. And so I wore an Apple Watch, and I have it with the haptic notifications, which I really like because I don’t have my phone turned on. So if someone’s calling me or someone texts me, I feel it on my wrist.
Gretchen
If I’m not looking at my phone because my phone doesn’t make any noise. So I really like that functionality. It really works for me. But I realized that it’s very distracting to have this haptic notification when I’m speaking and like once you know that you’ve been notified, you just really are very curious to know what’s going on. And what happened is a very silly exchange of texts between my family about Barnaby, but it was like notification notification, notification notification.
Gretchen
So then I was like, What’s going on? So my hack is, take off your smartwatch. If it’s an important meeting or important encounter or anything like that, you don’t want to get distracted or involuntarily glance down on it because you can’t help yourself and signal to somebody that you keep checking your device if you do not want to be disturbed.
Gretchen
So I think we’re all used to thinking about managing our phones. But now you may want to manage your watch as well.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Gretchen, I know I’ve been in a meeting with executives in Hollywood and had them glancing at their watch, and I thought, Oh, my gosh, are we that boring?
Gretchen
They’re already checking their watches.
Elizabeth
And then I finally realize, Oh my gosh, they’re just looking at some notification that’s come in. It’s not about me, it’s about them. Yes, but it is very distract, yes for the person who’s wearing the watch and also the person who’s sitting across from you.
Gretchen
Because we just associate that checking my watch with impatience, boredom, move along. And I can imagine if you’re doing some big pitch or like in what to you is a very high stakes conversation. Yes, it’s very hard not to just do it without thinking about it, which is why, you know, it’s always easier to change your circumstances than to change yourself.
Gretchen
So I would say, don’t work on your self-control. Just take your watch off at a time when it’s important and so that you don’t you don’t get into this situation.
Elizabeth
Okay? And now, Gretchen, we have a Know Yourself Better question.
Gretchen
Okay. This is fun because I ask this on social media and I was astonished by how passionate people’s response was to this question. So, Elizabeth, I will pose this question to you. I think I know the answer. Is your birthday a big deal to you or is it not such a big deal?
Elizabeth
My birthday is not a big deal to me. Now, I will say I don’t hate my birthday. Some people hate their birthday, and that’s a big deal in that way. Yeah, I like my birthday. I’m happy on my birthday. I love my birthdays in May. May is my favorite month, but my birthday is not a big thing to me and.
Gretchen
I think I would say the same. Now, it might be interesting that in our family, both our original family and our current families, I would say people do remember it and remark on it. So I think it’s I think maybe it becomes a bigger deal if you feel like people forget it. Maybe we’re like, we all like exchanged greetings and send you something that morning and call and often, you know, you will get a gift or two.
Gretchen
But it’s not a big deal. But it is it’s remarked on. It doesn’t pass unnoticed. Eliza and Eleanor always make me a homemade card. That’s, that’s really great. But people have really different expectations around this. And part of it probably is with how they were raised. Or maybe you do the opposite of what you were raised like. Your family never paid attention to it, so now you make a big deal out of it.
Gretchen
But I think like this is an important Know Yourself Better question is that you should know what do you need around your birthday and let the people around you know, because if they have a different set of expectations, it just may not even occur to them that you might feel like they’re being inconsiderate or that they’re letting you down because they just have a completely different set of ideas about what it means to recognize someone’s birthday.
Elizabeth
Yes. And that’s why I like Gretchen. The idea of if it’s your birthday, you’re the one to dictate what happens. You give yourself a birthday party rather than expecting others to plan a birthday party for you.
Gretchen
And if it’s really important to you to, like, get a cake, say, Hey, you know what? I need a cake.
Elizabeth
And I love a chocolate cake.
Yeah. Now what is I have heard of birthday week, but now it seems like a lot of people have birthday month. I had not heard of that. Have you heard of birthday month?
Elizabeth
Yes. Oh, yeah. There are people who celebrate multiple times all month. I have a friend, Gretchen, who has at least five parties a year.
Gretchen
A year?
Elizabeth
Yes, she has. With different groups of friends, with her family, with her writer friends. Oh, yeah. She celebrates all month. But you know what? It’s fun. It’s like if that’s what you want to do, do it.
Gretchen
Yeah, No, 100%. And maybe it’s kind of calendar catalyst. Like, you think I want to have a party for my writer friends and I want to have this. And it’s just something that can be done at any time, is often done at no time. And so if you use your birthday and then everybody sort of getting a kick out of it because it’s like, Oh, we’re all getting together for your birthday, there’s something kind of nice about that.
Gretchen
One thing that’s very true is that often people who have really faced down a serious illness are very grateful for their birthday because they feel like I don’t take it for granted that I would reach this birthday. That’s always a beautiful reminder to all of us, I think.
Elizabeth
Yes. Takes on a deeper meaning.
Gretchen
Yeah. And I think sometimes obligers. They can use their birthday as a form of accountability. It’s a way to think of your future self. Like by the time I turn X date, I want to have done this thing. So it’s a way to give a deadline to the future self because obligers often like deadlines for some of the letters using the future self is helpful, so it is a kind of future self deadline that some obligers do seem to be able to use and the other people use it almost like January 1st.
Gretchen
I mean, some people like January 1st is the fresh start and begin again. And then I think for other people it’s their birthday is their January 1st.
Elizabeth
The other thing, Gretchen, is to make sure to remember birthdays of people in their holidays. You, for instance, have December 14th and Jack, my son has December 16th. Even worse. Yeah. Someone said that December 26 is the worst day for a birthday. Well, maybe the 25th is even more. Oh, yeah. Kareen, one of my best friends, her birthday is December 26.
Elizabeth
And it’s a terrible birthday.
Gretchen
Yeah, you need to remember it. I know. I worry about with Jack that I’m like, I know what that’s like. I need to do a better job of remembering. But it is it. They get lumped together. Yeah.
Elizabeth
Now, Gretchen, I will say the older I get, the more I do admire people who entertain on their birthday and make a big deal of their birthday. Because I feel like they’re really doing something for others, you know? I mean, yeah, they’re making an event that is fun for all of us. It gives a reason to get together and it can be a hassle.
Elizabeth
So I like that people are willing to say, Hey, it’s my birthday, I’m planning something. I’m hosting something like let’s go to an escape room, whatever it may be. Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s really an act of generosity.
Gretchen
Well, you know, this is this is really inspiring me. Maybe I’ll put this on my 24 over 24 list because I haven’t done anything for my birthday.
Elizabeth
I will,too, for years.
Gretchen
But that would be super fun to, like, go with some friends to an escape room or like, you know, I have all these five senses adventures that I’m always wanting to go on. I can even say to people, Oh, I’m getting together a group, come if you can. And anyway, I’ll think about it. But this could be really fun.
Gretchen
You should do it for your birthday too. We both are always try saying that we want to entertain more and this would be a different angle for us.
Elizabeth
Yes. Okay. We’re both putting that on our list. That’s the first thing on my list. I love it.
Gretchen
Well, and it’s interesting because you and I are both under buyers, so we aren’t big gift givers to people. I think that can be a factor in birthdays because some people really do want that gift. Yeah, that’s one of the five love languages is receiving gifts. So I think that’s something to be aware of too, is do you expect gifts?
Gretchen
Do you give gifts to people who do expect them? The fun thing about having the party is you’re giving a gift. Yeah, that’s an interesting twist on it as well.
Elizabeth
Yes. So much to think about with birthdays. Yeah, I will tell you. You know, Sara and I went through a whole phase of trying to ban office birthday parties, and that was met with a resounding thud. Yeah. And we have reinstituted office birthdays whenever we’re in an office. So I’ve evolved on the birthday of, okay.
Gretchen
Now you know, I’m going to make an illusion. What am I going to make an illusion.
Elizabeth
To the office?
Gretchen
Yes, because. Because Jim tries this, Michael Scott is away and Jim tries to have one birthday per month for everybody. And it just everybody rebels and Michael Scott says rookie mistake because you have to have the office birthdays. Yeah so everything is related to the office that is.
Elizabeth
They have a birthday committee I believe.
Gretchen
They have the party planning committee. Yes. Yes. Then they have the breakaway party planning committee. Oh yeah. There’s all yes. So enough about the office. We get to keep talking about the office this week. We have an interesting listener question related to the four tendencies.
Elizabeth
Yes. And we made this one anonymous. And here’s the question. I recently facilitated the Four Tendencies workshop for my team at work. It was a great experience for all of us, but I was particularly surprised by the tendency of one of our team members. Unfortunately, this team member has been an underperformer and she rarely participates in team discussions or weekly meetings and almost never asks questions about her work assignments or when a new process is implemented.
Elizabeth
Is there such a thing as questioner rebellion? We’d love to hear any insight or experience you have with this conundrum.
Gretchen
Well, this is interesting. I would not consider it rebellion when a questionnaire does it, because the rebellion that rebels feel and that obligers feel is really a pushback against what others are asking of them. And it’s a subtle difference, but with a questioner it’s really coming from a place of this is a huge waste of my time.
Gretchen
This is not an efficient use of resources. There is no point to this. Why would I spend my time and energy in that meeting? And so what I think you have and not asking questions just means that she thinks that none of it makes any sense. So I think this is someone who’s deeply disenchanted and feels that basically her job is a waste.
Gretchen
I think that if the person is a questioner, that’s where that lack of engagement is coming from, because at a certain point they won’t even they just won’t even and it’s not rebellion because it’s not like you can’t make me do it. Or I feel overwhelmed by the fact that you’re making me do it. It’s just like, why am I going to waste my time?
Gretchen
Why am I going to listen to you? So I would say it’s more about explaining, like why it makes sense, why it’s needed, why it is efficient, because it might be that there are very good reasons, but this person maybe is new and doesn’t understand the bigger picture, doesn’t understand how others are being affected by her lack of participation.
Elizabeth
Well, that’s a great suggestion to sit down and explain all that to the person and explain or make a difference. Right.
Gretchen
Or just to say, like, why? Well, you know, the questioners often don’t like being asked questions, which is ironic, but true. Right. But to explain them why it is efficient, why it is logic, why you do have reasons, and then they might argue about it. They might say, well, your reasons are wrong. Here are my reasons. But then you’re arguing about what is the best way to do the job.
Gretchen
And that is something that questioners really value highly. And they will she would probably take that very seriously if she felt like someone was really honestly engaging with her on that. It may be also like it could be if you have a corporate environment where it’s very much like this is what corporate says or this is what the boss wants, and it’s kind of like everybody has to get in line and just execute, which there are many work environments that are like that.
Gretchen
But that’s great. Everybody is very enthusiastic about like we have a vision, we’re here to execute. Everybody is very excited about that. But to a questioner, they’re like, I don’t get it. This doesn’t make any sense to me. They won’t get on board with that. So again, it might be how they understand why they are being told to do what they’re told to do.
Gretchen
And so they just need to have a better understanding of that.
Elizabeth
All right.
Gretchen
That’s helpful. And if you don’t know what we’re talking about, if you want to know about of holders, questioners obligers and rebels, take the quiz. gretchenrubin.com/quiz and all will be revealed.
Elizabeth
All right. Coming up, I give myself a points demerit. But first, this break.
[music]
Gretchen
Okay, It’s time for demerits and gold stars. This week is an even numbered episode, which means it’s your turn to talk about a demerit.
Elizabeth
Yes. So, Gretchen, I’m giving myself a demerit for not understanding or paying attention to the best way to use credit card points. I think a lot of people will relate to that.
Gretchen
Can I just say, I 100% give myself exact same demerit. 100%.
Elizabeth
I mean, there’s a whole thing about what credit card you use for what, for which kind of points for, you know, miles versus points or hotel points. I mean, I know people gift cards who are like, oh, yeah, we just went to Santa Barbara for the weekend all on points. And they do this all the time. They get free hotel rooms really, you know, really nice hotel rooms.
Elizabeth
And I feel like I never really get that much for points because I’m not doing it right, but nor do I have the patience to figure out how to do it and to make sure that every time I buy something, I’m using the right card and all of that. It’s a demerit because I could be having all these experiences with my points.
Gretchen
But so here’s the thing is there are people for whom this is like a game. I have a friend who is so cunning, he is working every angle and he really enjoys it. I mean, for him it really is how do I score this free stuff? And it makes him feel like he’s really outfoxing the system. And I can see that he truly enjoys it.
Gretchen
It’s not even just that he wants to like, get the most out of it. It’s that he, it’s like the way some people love coupons, you know? I mean, like they loved this clipper coupon and it just it’s satisfying to them. This is one of the things that I wish that like when you have a life partner, you could check a box of what you would like in a life partner, because I would love to have that in a life partner.
Gretchen
Like, if Jamie would do it, I would love it. If Adam would do it, you would love it, but we don’t want to do it and they don’t want to do it. So then it’s very not very well done.
Elizabeth
Yes, but anyway, that’s a goal to try to improve my points.
Gretchen
But is it a goal? I don’t think that it is a goal. I think it’s just like up there it is now.
Elizabeth
Maybe we’ll see. But regardless, I feel that it is a happiness demerit.
Gretchen
It’s a demerit. Is it an actionable demerit? We shall see. The 24 over 24 list is coming up. All things are possible. Everything’s on the table now, okay?
Elizabeth
Yes. All right, Gretch, what is your gold star this week?
Gretchen
Well, I want to give a gold star to a podcast. Eliza, or was it Eleanor, told me about this podcast. It’s nine episodes. It’s a series called The Evaporated, Gone with the Gods. And what is it is about is it’s looking at every angle or many angles of in Japan, there is a phenomenon of people evaporating, which is when people disappear and it’s sort of a look at like, why do people do this?
Gretchen
How do they do it? Why is it that this is more possible in Japan than it is in other countries? Though now they’ve made some changes that will make this more difficult. The host of the podcast had somebody, his accountant kind of vanished, but he manages to pursue that trail. So it’s a very interesting look into another culture in a very specific practice that I just found really, really interesting And really engaging to listen to.
Gretchen
So that’s called The Evaporated, Gone with the Gods.
Elizabeth
Yes, I listened too, and it’s fascinating.
Gretchen
It’s fascinating. The resource for this week, the Muse Machine is ready to go out into the world. I am so excited about this. In Life in five Senses, I talked about creating my own DIY, messy version of the Muse Machine, but now it is an actual deck of 150 cards with these somewhat mysterious creative prompts that you can use whenever you get stuck.
Gretchen
So you’ve got some kind of creative hurdle. You can pull a card and ponder whatever the indirect direction is to get some unexpected insights. I had so much fun. I worked with a brilliant team to create these. You can find it at happiercast.com/store and I’m just really excited for these to go out into the world because it’s really something where I had this sort of strange idea and this list in my computer and now it’s actually turned into something that can be held in the hands and that’s so exciting.
Elizabeth
Yeah, and Gretch. We all need to do creative things. So even if you’re not writing a book, for instance, yeah, it’s still a great gift, a great thing to have.
Gretchen
And speaking of writing a book, what book are we reading? What are you reading?
Elizabeth
I am reading Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon by Michael Lewis.
Gretchen
And I’m reading to All The Boys I’ve Loved Before by Jenny Han. And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Consider solutions for challenging social situations. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Elizabeth
Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed and everyone at Cadence 13. Get in touch. Gretchen’s on Instagram and Tik Tok and Threads at Gretchen Rubin and I’m on Instagram and Threads at Liz Craft. Our email address is podcast@gretchenrubin.com.
Gretchen
And if you like the show, please be sure to tell a friend. That’s how most people discover our show and follow, rate, and review us in your favorite podcasting app.
Elizabeth
Until next week. I’m Elizabeth Craft.
Gretchen
And I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
Gretchen
So, Elizabeth, you are hosting Thanksgiving dinner. Are you fired up?
Elizabeth
Yeah, it’s, I am. I’m, you know, always trepidatious but excited. So, yeah, let’s roll. Be talking a lot about it. I’m sure they’re ready for that to be a major part of our conversation.
Gretchen
You’re going to bust out those tablescapes. So that’s one thing.
Elizabeth
I need to for sure. It’s on my mind.
Gretchen
I bet.
[music]
From the Onward Project.