Update
Big favor for Apple users! Please “unpause” the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, if it’s paused.
Open your podcast app, find Happier in your library, hit the pause symbol in the top right corner. If it gives you the option to “Turn on automatic downloads,” do that.
It’s a huge help to us.
Try This at Home
Join us for No-Spend February.
We mention the distinction between under-buyers and over-buyers.
We also talk about my new “Habits for Happiness” quiz.
Happiness Hack
A friend made “24 for ’24” lists with her four children, and then they all discussed their lists. The exercise was a terrific window into their interests, worries, and values.
Happiness Stumbling Block
We both face the stumbling block of clutter that accumulates because some items—often, packaging such as a cookie tin or miniature jam jar—seem too good to toss or recycle, but not good enough to donate.
Demerits & Gold Stars
Elizabeth’s Demerit: She decided not to give herself a demerit for making a weak start to 2024, because she has been sick. So she moved the “start date” of 2024 to January 16.
Gretchen’s Gold Star: Thanks to the book clubs that have been discussing my books!
Resource
Are you joining us for #Write24in24? Get some journals or tools to start or continue your #Write24in24 routine.
Elizabeth is using the One-Sentence Journal. I’m using the One-Sentence Journal and the Five-Senses Journal (I couldn’t choose). Find all journals here.
What We’re Reading
*This transcript is unedited*
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to Happier, a podcast where we discuss strategies and suggestions for how to make our lives happier, healthier, more productive and more creative. This week, we’ll talk about why you might consider joining the two of us for no spend February. And we’ll talk about a cluttered clearing, happiness stumbling block that we both face.
Elizabeth
Maybe you have suggestions.
Elizabeth
I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, The five senses, Human Nature. I’m in my little home office here in New York City. And joining me today from L.A. is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. And Elizabeth, I’m looking forward to not spending with you.
Gretchen
That’s me. Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in L.A. And yeah, maybe we’ll have more time to talk because we won’t be spending exactly.
Elizabeth
But before we luncheon, we are going to ask you for a big favor.
Gretchen
There’s something we need to ask you to do today that would mean so much to us if you listen on Apple. Take a few seconds to make sure you are staying up to date with the show.
Elizabeth
A surprising thing was surprising to many people. Thing happened with a recent Apple update and listeners are paused without knowing it. And we want to make sure you’re getting your.
Gretchen
Episodes and this is real. Gretch, I had no idea some of my favorite podcasts, like housewife podcasts. Where Shall We Begin? By Esther Perel Where? Pause.
Elizabeth
Me Happier was paused because of course I follow Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, But because I listen to the show again before it goes live to see if there’s any edits we need to make. I don’t often listen to it in my feed, and so our own podcast was paused for me, so I had to unpause it.
Gretchen
Okay, so to check to see if this happened to you Apple listeners, listen up. Open your podcast app, go to your library, find the show. And if there is a pause symbol in the top right corner, tap that. And then if it gives you the option to turn on automatic downloads, do that, please. It will only take a few seconds.
Elizabeth
Yes. This way you get all the episodes and it is a huge help to us. It really does matter. You may have heard other podcasters talking about this because it really is important to us. Podcasters.
Gretchen
So again, go to your podcast library, find our show and unpause.
Elizabeth
Yes, Thank you. And in other news, we got a really fun email from a listener, Wendy. Yes.
Gretchen
She said, Hi, Gretchen, I heard you on your podcast talking about wanting to go to Unclaimed Baggage in Scottsboro, Alabama. I live in Boaz, Alabama, and have been to this store several times. We even found this beautiful wedding dress there for my daughter. It was brand new with the tags on it, but we only paid $200 and she said a great picture of her daughter in her beautiful wedding dress.
Elizabeth
So, Elizabeth, this may be one of our adventures. I need to plus for adventures in 2024. And I’m very intrigued, I must say fascinated. So this week are try this at home. Tip is to join us for a no spend February. Elizabeth, you and I both added this to our 24 for 24 list. No spend February.
Gretchen
Yes and I’m also doing this Gretchen with Sarah Fain, my writing partner and co-host of happier and hollywood over on happier in Hollywood so I’m double nos spend February.
Elizabeth
Is that I’m really interested to hear about that because you and I are both underwire so why are we doing this? But Sarah is definitely an over buyer, so it will be interesting to compare and contrast the over buyer under buyer experience. Yes, but I think that you and I have talked about this, that even as underwriters, we think that by stopping spending, it will reveal things to us.
Elizabeth
We’ll understand our own patterns, our own pitfalls, our own temptations, maybe more than we have. By depriving ourselves of spending, we will reveal our behavior.
Gretchen
Yeah, well. And I shook your new habits quiz recently, and my result was make mindful choices related to saving and investing money. So I mean, those spend February is perfect for that. Yeah, I.
Elizabeth
Think that one thing that you and I will both find one thing is that we will be aware of little stuff that we buy here and there that we don’t need. You know, we’re not aware of it. But here was a great insight from a listener. Lynn.
Gretchen
She said, I want you to share my no by July. I like the like.
Elizabeth
The rhyming.
Gretchen
Experience from 2023. A no by month was on my 23 for 23 lists last year. I have become a constant shopper and it influenced my everything all day long, so I know by month was in order. Last July, instead of buying everything I wanted, I created a list in my journal and wrote down everything I was tempted to buy so I could revisit the items.
Gretchen
In August. What I found was that I didn’t need any of those items. Actually, out of the 15 items I was tempted to buy, I only purchased one in August. This experience was eye opening. Good luck with your lists. I love this concept and have been doing them along with you since 2019.
Elizabeth
Excellent. Good. Okay. Yeah. No. By July, if we do it again, I like the rhyme. That’s the fluency heuristic. So, Elizabeth, what do you think we won’t be buying? What do you think you’ll find yourself refraining from buying?
Gretchen
Well, I think clothes on sale, so that’s one of my weaknesses, is getting an ad that. so-and-so’s having a sale and then going to the sale and buying something, you know, largely because it’s 60%. Right.
Elizabeth
It’s like at these prices, you can’t afford not to buy.
Gretchen
Right. Exactly.
Elizabeth
It’s going once going twice. You have to buy it now or you can’t get it. I think that for me, a lot of it is going to be buying books, because if I can get a book at the library, usually I will get it at the library. But there’s a lot of books that my library doesn’t have and I often buy them, so I don’t forget about them.
Elizabeth
So it’s not like I immediately want to read it. It’s more like I’m afraid that if I don’t have a copy of this, I’ll forget about it. But I can just keep a list. Yeah, here’s a kind of thing that I buy. Elizabeth So how would I describe this category? It’s like things that seem intriguingly useful, and yet, can I actually use them?
Elizabeth
Okay, so friend of mine told me about this glue stick that you can get. It’s called reposition the bulk glue stick, and it turns any piece of paper into a sticky note. So you put that piece of paper that’s just a regular piece of paper. You put this glue on it on the back and then you can stick it to your computer screen or whatever.
Elizabeth
And I was enchanted by this. I bought it for myself. I bought it for you for Christmas. I bought it for our mother for Christmas. Even though if I had taken one second, it would have been like this. Our mother want to stick sticky notes all over the place. No, she does not. That is not her esthetic. But I was just like, This thing is amazing.
Elizabeth
Who knew you could do this right? But I didn’t actually have a need for it. I have plenty of sticky notes already, so I just was intrigued by the possibility, even though it didn’t actually solve a problem for.
Gretchen
Me, something great that I’m going to not do, which is going to be really the hardest thing for me, is not order GrubHub or DoorDash or any of those firms. Okay, well.
Elizabeth
Let’s step back. And I think this is a big because we’re going to have to talk about like what we can do, what we can’t do. And I think this is a huge category. So let’s let’s go through it. Buying food. Okay. We can buy food at a grocery store, right? One of the things we can get is like necessary things for household functioning, right?
Elizabeth
We can buy toilet paper. We can buy.
Gretchen
Yes.
Elizabeth
Toothpaste. Okay. You can buy you can buy a carton of eggs. Can we go to a restaurant in February?
Gretchen
I’m saying yes, because that’s social. That’s relationships. So I’m saying yes to going out to a restaurant.
Elizabeth
If it is social, would you go? And like neither one of us feel really like go to a diner and buy ourselves, have lunch. Okay. So going to a restaurant is okay if it’s a social occasion, but not at least for me, I would not. And I don’t do this that often, but I do. I might do it sometimes it’s like stop by a corner store and buy a Diet Coke.
Elizabeth
So it’s like something I’m like, I don’t really need something. It’s on the go. It’s an impulse food or beverage thing. Okay, so restaurants are okay. Impulse snack purchases are not okay. Okay, then. Okay. So GrubHub, explain. How do you think about GrubHub?
Gretchen
I waste a lot of money getting food delivered because there’s a big charge for it and it’s not as healthy as just getting stuff from the grocery store and eating them, you know? So that is why I want to pay attention to how much I’m doing it. How hard really is it to not? Yes, you know what I mean?
Gretchen
Like, it’s probably not that hard. It takes just a tiny bit of extra planning or extra effort. So that’s why I really want to focus on that, because I feel like for me, that’s where I am. An over buyer is in the food delivery category. But another thing that I’m not going to buy is any extra purchases for any games that I might play.
Gretchen
And again, I don’t do this a lot, but I do occasionally. And I that’s a complete waste.
Elizabeth
Like what kind of games?
Gretchen
Two dots a game I like. I’m going to buy no extra lives right on my phone.
Elizabeth
I think we can buy gifts if they are immediate gifts. So it’s not like, this would make a great gift. This thing is on sale, but it’s like, I’m going to a birthday party. I can buy a gift. I have several family birthdays in February so I can buy those gifts. I would say for me, no tech upgrade for fun.
Elizabeth
I don’t know what that might be, but I could imagine that like, these AirPods look cool or something like that.
Gretchen
And for me, I would say like I could get paid for a workout class but not buy new.
Elizabeth
Okay, there you go. Right. Because one is the actual exercise, but one is we. Right?
Gretchen
Okay.
Elizabeth
Well, I think one of the things that I’m really hoping to get this is to shop the closet and to shop that what we already have. Because what I find is that often it’s easier to buy a replacement than to hunt for something down or see if you already own it. Sometimes it’s easier to say like, let me just get a new pair of leggings instead of like, Let me really look at the leggings I have and see if I already have something that would work or what do I really need?
Elizabeth
This happened to me just recently, so I wear in the winter, I wear fingertip lace gloves all the time inside because my hands get so cold and I lot they fell out of my pocket somewhere. And so I was like, gosh, I got to go buy another pair. And then just by accident, I wasn’t looking for it mindfully, but I just by accident, found this excellent pair that I got for Christmas in 2022.
Elizabeth
They’re perfect. But again, it’s like if I knew, I can’t buy those, I would have been like, Well, but let me look and see. Do I already own that? And I think sometimes we’re not looking to see, do I already have something that could serve that purpose for me? Because sometimes it’s like, I’ll just get what I need instead of looking around, you know, poking around in my archives of my possessions.
Gretchen
Yes. No, shopping. The closet is always a good idea.
Elizabeth
Okay, so what else do we anticipate? What do we think we’re going to get from this?
Gretchen
Well, I think I’m going to get some relief from decision fatigue, because I think I do spend a lot of time sort of looking at an item and saying, do I need this? Do I not need this putting it in my car than looking a day later to see, is that still in my card? Is it still available?
Gretchen
Do I want it? So I think because I’m an underwire, I usually don’t even follow through with buying an item in my cart, but I just spend a lot of time thinking, Right. Ooh. So I that’s interesting. Able to think about that and you’ll save me time. I won’t bother.
Elizabeth
That’s interesting that this could be more about like time and energy even than money. See, that’s interesting for an underwire. Well, I want to use up what we have, you know, because I’m not buying more like people have a lot of this with crafts like you love to knit, but you already have a ton of yarn, so no spend.
Elizabeth
And I think for me it’s like, I’ll read the books I already own because since I can’t buy any new books and it’s either at the library or I’m checking out the books on my own.
Gretchen
Shelf, yes, I’ll use hair products that I own. I’ve for some reason in the last year I’ve gotten very into hair products, which I never was before, and I need to use what I have.
Elizabeth
Also, we’re doing this exercise as underwire, but of course, over buyers might also be intrigued. We want your suggestions and also send in your suggestions for over Buyer’s.
Gretchen
Yes. And Jolene asks, I hear Elizabeth and Gretchen talk a lot about being under buyers and tips to deal with that. Part of what I want for this New Year is to focus on my over. By our nature, any tips? Typical budgets and restrictions work for a short time and then fail. Identifying the problem is helped when it comes to household items.
Gretchen
Make sure to have one extra so I don’t worry about running out. And also don’t worry about where to put 15 tubes of toothpaste, but budget for clothes or unnecessary spending never stick, especially in today’s world where there are ads everywhere. So the dog toy I don’t need is now in my social media feed or inbox. So send suggestions for Jolene about what to do when you’re an over buyer.
Elizabeth
And send suggestions for us. And how are you thinking about this? What categories are you eliminating? What categories are you including? What are you learning? What do you anticipate learning? Let us know if you do join us for no spend February and how it’s working for you. Let us know on Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Facebook, drop us an email at podcast@gretchenrubin.com or as always you can go to the show notes this is happiercast.com/466
Gretchen
Coming up we have a 24 for 24 happiness hack that first this spring.
Gretchen
Okay, Gretch, we are back with this week’s Happiness Hack.
Elizabeth
Yes, this came from a friend. So a friend was telling me that she had made 24 over 24 list with her four children. They were out to dinner and they all sat there, made their list, and then they compared their lists. And she said it was such an interesting discussion. It gave such a window to her into their interests, their worries, their desire for themselves, for what they wanted for the year.
Elizabeth
And I just thought this was a great idea. And I have to say, you know, I do worry about being a happiness bully. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, Elizabeth, that I can come on a little strong.
Gretchen
Never. No.
Elizabeth
And so I do so many things like this. I rarely ask my own children, Eliza, Eleanor, let’s all do this together because I have to rein it in. But I am I think you do learn so much from even with listeners where we know nothing about who makes up their 24 for 24 list. It’s so fascinating. And you feel like you get such a picture of an individual.
Elizabeth
I love this idea of doing it within a family.
Gretchen
I do too. I’m just thinking in one of my dinners out that I’m allowed during those February. I should do this with Jack and Adam because I would love to hear what’s on their list.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I learn so much about you every time you and I compare list, so I thought that was a great idea as a great, you know, feeling closer and more connected to your other family members.
Gretchen
Absolutely.
Elizabeth
And now a happiness stumbling block. And this is an issue where it’s something that I struggle with and I’ve struggled with it for years. And it is it’s when you have clutter because something feels too good to get rid of, but it’s like, what do you do with it? And I feel like where this comes up a lot for me is with packaging.
Elizabeth
We get something. The packaging isn’t what you cared about. You’re like, I want the thing. I don’t care about the package, but it comes in a package that feels too good to just toss or recycle. And yet, is it good enough to donate? Does anybody want this like packaging? Like, what do you do with the stuff that it kind of reminds me of that all these listeners were saying, What do you do with things that are neither clean or dirty?
Elizabeth
They’re neither fresh from the washing machine or dirty enough to watch, and it’s sort of like they just kind of pile up because you’re like, I don’t know what to do with that. It’s neither clean or dirty. These are things like it’s neither trash nor truly useful or or good for a purpose, you know? Yeah, this makes me bonkers.
Gretchen
So let’s go through some examples of this. I think people will relate.
Elizabeth
Yes. One thing for me, I don’t Altoids tin. I find these utterly enchanting. I love an Altoids tin. What do you do with them, though? I mean, you’ve had your Altoids, you’ve had your fun. They’re a very particular size. I don’t know what to do with an Altoids.
Gretchen
Tin Gretch in the same vein as the Altoids tin. I have, for instance, a biscuits tin from Harrod’s. A friend of ours stayed with us and he brought us cookies from Harrods. And I was going to throw away the tin. And Adam said, No, don’t throw that away. It’s so nice. I’m going to use it for something. Yeah, well, it has been sitting on top of our airfryer now for, I think, two and a half years.
Gretchen
Yeah.
Elizabeth
Yeah. No teach ins like things will come in these, like, lovely tins and you think, well you can just put things in these tins but it’s like you can’t see what’s inside the tin, you can’t control the size of the tin. Sometimes the lids are a little bit hard to get on and off, and yet they’re so charming.
Elizabeth
I have tins and I same thing. I don’t know what to do with them. Here’s another thing. Tote bags from stores where it’s not a really nice tote bag. And for goodness sakes, I have so many really nice tote bags. I’m like trying to manage those tote bags. But they’re not just like throwaway tote bags. And you can think, Well, I can use some tote bags, but, you know, you start getting like five tote bags.
Elizabeth
Who wants these tote bags? They’re too good and not good enough.
Gretchen
Yeah. One, you and I don’t deal with any more, but many listeners, I’m sure, do deal with this glass baby food jars.
Elizabeth
When Eliza and Eleanor were little, I had to stop myself from saving every single glass baby food jar because they’re so cunning also. Yes. Okay. This is something I really had to stop. You know, sometimes if you go to a really, really nice hotel, they give you those tiny pots of jam. Well, you know how I love anything miniature or like, the tiny, tiny, tiny bottle of hot sauce.
Gretchen
Yes.
Elizabeth
I’m just. It’s like all I can do to resist filling my pockets, all those things because I’m enchanted by them, because they’re miniature and they’re so delightful. But I’m like, You don’t need a thousand little tiny glass jars or even little, little, little tiny bottles of hot sauce. I don’t know. Maybe I’ll do an art project with them.
Gretchen
One I find myself saving Gretch, which I really shouldn’t, is the badge on a lanyard from, like, a convention or a conference, you know, or a press event. I’m like, Well, I don’t need this, but it seems very nice. I don’t feel I a throw it away.
Elizabeth
I am so glad you brought this up because I thought I was the only person in the world who had that. If I reached back right now into my box of supplies, I have three of these because I’m like, This is such a nice thing. I should.
Gretchen
Yeah.
Elizabeth
The next time I go to a conference and if they give you the one that you’re supposed to pin on your clothes. But I don’t want to put a pin through my nice silk shirt, I’ll just whip out this badge lanyard that I’ve been saving. Well, I mean, how does one repurpose some? They are so good.
Gretchen
What I’ve noticed now is that I think people are starting to have a place to put them as 100% event. Yes. And that’s the best.
Elizabeth
That is the best. And they should make that much more conspicuous and really remind people because they are really nice. Yes, I think that’s.
Gretchen
Good for the environment, good for saving for the event. Yes. And then you don’t have them piling up in your closet.
Elizabeth
Exactly. I’ve been doing this forever. Remember how I used to just gigantic amounts of oatmeal? Yes. Like, I mean, I, like, lived on oatmeal for years. And so when I there was a year when I lived off campus in college, a tremendous amount of oatmeal. And I love a Quaker Oats oatmeal cylinder for some reason. Again, like, I just love that shape.
Elizabeth
There’s something about like those cylinders that just appeals to me. So there was this shelf in my room, so I just kept them there and it was kind of they looked cool, just like a bunch of them all together. And so and I got it. Kind of a strange feeling of satisfaction every time I added one to my collection.
Elizabeth
But then, of course, I had to move out at the end of my senior year and it was like, okay, what do you do with like a giant, giant mound of oats cylinders? So that was turned out to be not that much fun. But here’s the thing. What do you do with these things?
Gretchen
Yes, that’s the stumbling block. What do you do with these?
Elizabeth
What’s the stumbling block? I mean, and the answer is not, I have a friend who loves a good biscuit tin, so I give it to her because it’s like, okay, yeah, but I do not know that friend. Maybe ask around a good tin. I think you can donate, but some of these things really are not even at that level.
Elizabeth
So anyway, if there is a solution we would love to hear coming up.
Gretchen
Gretch, I am not giving myself a demerit. First, this one.
Elizabeth
Okay, Liz, it is time for demerits and gold starts. And it’s your week for a demerit, but you are not giving yourself a demerit. So explain.
Gretchen
I was going to give myself a demerit for not getting my January exercise going the way I wanted to. But, gretchen, I have been sick, and I’ve decided that I just really need to listen to my body and rest. Yeah, And even though I’m like, well, it’s been two weeks, like by now, I should be completely better and able to do what I plan to do.
Gretchen
The truth is like it can take a while to get better and I’m not going to help myself by pushing it. So therefore I’m not giving myself a demerit because giving myself a demerit will encourage me to go out and do it. So I’m just going to be kind to myself.
Elizabeth
Well, I thought that you and Sarah on Happier and Hollywood. You talked about how you were both sick at the beginning of the year, and that’s discouraging because I think we all have this idea like, I want to start strong. And how you start is how you keep going. And it’s frustrating. And you think about everything you want to start and you know, your own theory, FIFO and all that.
Elizabeth
Yeah, but so what you guys did is you’re like, let’s just say that the year starts January 16th, that is the first day. And so we’re just creating a new start date and then January 1st and January 16th is just this liminal period. Yeah, it’s not the start of the new year, so you’re not behind, you’re just starting a different day.
Elizabeth
And I thought that was a very good psychology. Nicole trick to get you out of that feeling that you’re behind. Because I think that you were feeling like I’m falling behind, I’m letting myself down. But you just, you were sick.
Gretchen
Yes. We even texted each other Happy New Year and tried to celebrate. And that’s why, though, I want to not make a point of not giving myself a demerit, because even though we did that day, you still have a feeling of being behind. Yes. So just trying to acknowledge that and then just move on.
Elizabeth
The best time to start your new Year’s resolution is January 1st, and the second best time is now. So whenever you feel up to it and get started, then you will go. So good luck.
Gretchen
Thank you. Okay, great. What’s your gold star?
Elizabeth
Well, I’ve been hearing from people about book clubs that have been discussing my books, Life in Five Senses, The Happiness Project. So people were discussing the Four tendencies. Anyway, I’m in so many book clubs myself. I love a book club, and it always gives me so much pleasure to think that there’s a book club talking about my book.
Elizabeth
So thank you everyone who wrote to let me know. I really do appreciate it. The resource for this week. Okay. We are underway with right 24 and 24, writing for 24 minutes in 2024 or writing for 2 to 4 minutes in 2024. Elizabeth, have you been doing that even though you’re sick?
Gretchen
Yes, I have. I’ve been doing my one sentence turn. Yes.
Elizabeth
So I had a funny thing where I was going to do my five senses journal, but then I was like no obligation to a one sentence journal and I couldn’t decide. And then I’m like, Hey, I have to do 4 minutes. I can do both. So I am doing the one sentence journal and the five senses Journal. If you want to see these journals that we’re talking about, that’s happiercast.com/shop.
Elizabeth
I’m really enjoying this. Elizabeth, how are you finding it?
Gretchen
Yes. It’s new.
Elizabeth
For me. Yes. Well, we are going to start a segment called The Right Way. You know, we always say there’s no one right way, but this is going to be the right way w our i.t. Where we share ideas about how people are writing and how people are sticking to it, etc.. So send in all your ideas and observations.
Elizabeth
Resources. What are you doing to approach? Write 24 and 24 in your life and we will report back in that segment. And speaking of writing, what are we reading? Elizabeth, what are you reading?
Gretchen
I am reading Tom Lake by Ann Patchett.
Elizabeth
And I am just about to start the Vanderbeekers of 141st Street by Karina Yan Glaser And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Join us for a no spend February. Let us know if you tried it and if it works for you.
Gretchen
Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed and everyone at Cadence 13. Get in touch Gretchen’s on Instagram and Threads and Tik Tok at Gretchen Rubin and I’m on Instagram and Threads at Liz Craft. Our email address is podcast@gretchenrubin.com.
Elizabeth
And if you like the show, please do unpause because that really really does help the show. Just take a few seconds and do that. We will shower you with gold stars.
Gretchen
Until next week. I’m Elizabeth Craft.
Elizabeth
And I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward. So it is a for no spend February. We have to make sure that we don’t hurry up and do a lot of spending in January. I’m really trying to be like I’m not. Yes, you know, I’m not I.
Gretchen
Was going to say the same thing. I don’t want to like, Yes, buy a bunch of stuff that I don’t need just so I won’t buy it. In February.
Elizabeth
I run out and get a bunch of repositionable glue sticks.
Gretchen
Yeah, Yeah, I’m looking.
Elizabeth
Forward to it. I think it’s going to be interesting.
Gretchen
Yes, I. I’m very curious.
Elizabeth
From the onward project.