Update
The Happier Book Club is returning! We’ll be talking about—you guessed it—Life in Five Senses!
We’ll discuss it in an episode at the end of May. To learn more, read an excerpt, get a book-group discussion guide, or take the “What’s Your Neglected Sense?” quiz, click here.
If you’d like a free, personalized bookplate to make your copy more special, or for members of a book group, request them here. (U.S. and Canada only, sorry.)
And if you’d like a bookplate for a mother in your life, for Mother’s Day, please request by May 1! These are actual physical items that I will mail to you, and it’s a bit of a process.
Try This at Home
Whatever you encourage others to do, consider doing yourself.
Happiness Hack
When I want someone to know that I’m asking them to meet for lunch or coffee in order to talk about work-related subjects, not as a purely friendly gesture, I say, “I love to talk shop, if you love to talk shop, let’s make a plan!”
We mention Michael Melcher’s terrific book, Your Invisible Network: How to Create, Maintain and Leverage the Relationships That Will Change Your Career
Know Yourself Better
We revisited a question we’ve discussed in the past: Are you a finisher or an opener?
Revisiting “Finisher and opener”—came up on social media and people intrigued.
We also mention a question that came up on a recent Instagram Live conversation I had with Melissa Urban, author of The Book of Boundaries: Set The Limits That Will Set You Free. If you were going to spend the rest of your life on a desert island, would you take books or music?
Demerits & Gold Stars
- Gretchen’s Demerit: I’ve been snapping at people.
- Elizabeth’s Gold Star: She gives a gold star to a friendly acquaintance who has been working with a child in the foster-care system.
Resources
If you’d like to get Life in Five Senses Discussion Guide for your book group, church group, or work group, you can get it here.
What we’re reading
427
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to Happier a podcast about how to be happier. This week we’ll talk about the suggestion that whatever you encourage someone else to do, you should think about doing it yourself. And I’ll suggest a hack for making it easier to network at work. I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, the five senses, human nature.
[Music]
Gretchen
I’m usually in my little home office in New York City, but now I’m doing a lot of traveling these days for my book tour. So I am on the road. And joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.
Elizabeth
That’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in L.A.. And Gretch, we’re recording a couple of days early this week because you’re on your book tour. So I will be seeing you in just a couple of days.
Gretchen
Yeah, I cannot wait. You know, by the time this airs, we will have seen each other, but in real life, we haven’t yet seen each other. So that’s very fun.
Elizabeth
Yes. Gretchen, I am hoping that we can hike Fryman Canyon together while you’re here.
Gretchen
Yes.
Elizabeth
And congratulations on the book being out and your book tour. It’s all very exciting. I’m watching it all unfold on social media.
Gretchen
Yes. It’s so great. Thank you for everyone, for all the good wishes. I so appreciate it. Now, before we launch into this week’s try this at home. First, we got an update from a listener who’s responding to the idea of how to see differently in museums.
Elizabeth
Yes, this comes from Chris, who says, I enjoy hearing suggestions on how to visit museums and wanted to offer another thought to the mix. I am on the Board of a Historical Society in Spring Borough, Ohio. I never noticed small museums prior to my involvement locally, but now seek them out whenever I’m traveling. It’s a great way to learn more about the town you’re visiting.
Elizabeth
Spring Borough is known for our involvement in the Underground Railroad and we give tours around the historic district for a nominal fee. It brings me a lot of satisfaction to share such an important part of history with both out-of-town visitors and community members.
Gretchen
So this is great. Like visiting local museums and historical societies is a great idea. It’s a great way to get to know the place better and it’s super fun. And then we have another response from and I have to apologize to this listener because I either wrote down Theresa or Kaitlyn, but there was a name at the beginning and a name at the end.
Gretchen
So Theresa or Kaitlyn, thank you. You will know your comment.
Elizabeth
Theresa or Kaitlyn says, I recently started using a couple apps to learn about identifying plants, animals and fungi that I wanted to recommend. I’m enjoying seek by I naturalist for help identifying the things I see while I go for walks and the Audubon App for learning more about recognizing birds by both their appearance and their songs. These are great ways to encourage me to get outside for 23 minutes as a Questioner with a big Rebel streak.
Elizabeth
Sometimes I need a better reason to do something then, because it’s good for me. I’m very intellectually motivated, so I like knowing that if I go for a walk, I can challenge myself to log a few new species and practice listening to the birds. In addition to getting in some steps and sunshine. I’m learning about the world around me and getting fun skills that have nothing to do with my work.
Elizabeth
So they are purely a way to increase the joy in my life. Inaturalist is also great because high quality photos are sent to scientists, which means users can help with research. How fun, How fun.
Gretchen
So this is using your tendency. This is go outside 23in23. This is the so many smart things and self-knowledge put to use or the benefit of going outside.
Elizabeth
Love it. And then Gretchen, we are so excited to announce the return of the Happier Book Club.
Gretchen
Yes, yes, yes. It has been too long. We are very excited to have another book club discussion and I’m very honored, Elizabeth, that I am being picked.
Elizabeth
Yes, I chose your book, The Life in Five Senses for our next book club selection. So I am really going to get to kind of interview you. Yeah, because we always have a discussion with the author. Yeah. So I’m very excited for. I’ll be leading that discussion. We’re going to have that conversation at the end of May.
Elizabeth
So the book is out, so everyone get your copy, read it. Send us questions for Gretchen about the book and about the writing of the book. And we’re going to have an amazing discussion.
Gretchen
Yeah, and if you want a discussion guide like you’re reading it with your book group you you want to, you need the link to the what’s your neglected science quiz, you want to read an excerpt, anything like that. Go to gretchenrubin.com/books and you’ll find more than more than you need. But yeah, Elizabeth you suggested it.
Gretchen
And of course I believe to the chance it will be really fun to do the book club again. Yes so this week I tried this at home. Tip is something that comes from my own life because I caught myself in a moment and admonished myself. So the try this at home tip is whatever you’re encouraging others to do, you should do yourself.
Elizabeth
And this takes a couple of different forms. So explain when it occurred to you.
Gretchen
Okay, So we were having issues with our toilet, you know, whatever running and as toilets are want to do. And I was thinking to myself, you know, maybe Jamie can take a simple home repair class. And I remember it was a I think you might have been too young, but when we were really, really little, our father took a class at Sears, which was simple home repairs, and he had a book called The Furniture Doctor, which made a big impression on me for some reason about just doing stuff around the house.
Gretchen
And I thought, Well, it would be so great if Jamie did that. And then it occurred to me, Well, maybe I should take a home repair class. If I think it’s a good idea, why don’t I take the home repair class, which I am sure that is exactly what Jamie would say. Yes. And I just think it’s a good principle.
Gretchen
And here’s another example that occurred to me, too, once I started thinking about it. So in Eliza and Eleanor’s school, when you were senior, you did this big senior project at the very end of senior year, and some children really just don’t take it very seriously and they do this kind of nonsense projects. And then some take it very seriously and do extremely cool and interesting things.
Gretchen
And I said to Eliza, What you should do starting in ninth grade is take a picture of yourself every single day in the same place. Take a picture of yourself, and people’s appearance changes so much between and twelfth grade. It would be absolutely fascinating. You can do some time lapse thing and by the time you get to senior year, your work would have been done.
Gretchen
You just knit this thing together and it would be amazing. And there are other projects like this where it follows something over time. And that, of course, is one of my big interests, is how things change over time. That’s why I went to the Met every day. I’m very interested in that. And she sort of did it. She actually did it pretty regularly for a couple of years.
Gretchen
But then I thought, Why didn’t I do it? If I thought this was such an interesting. Right. Yeah. I should have taken a picture of myself every day for four years. That would have been really, really interesting. So instead of encouraging her to do it, I should have done it myself. So how about you, Elizabeth? Do you know what I’m talking about?
Elizabeth
Yes. And I think it falls under two categories. There’s the I want you to do this. I’m encouraging you to do this because I don’t want to do it, but someone should. That’s like the toilet repair class, or in my case, that’s like grilling. Okay. I’m always thinking like, Adam, you should really figure out the grill. And have.
Elizabeth
I bought him numerous books about grilling and grilling instruments and aprons and sauces? Yes, I have, but really, I could figure out the grill. It’s not like Adam has more knowledge than I do. You know, Really, either of us could do it. I just would like him to do it because I’m not interested. But yes, clearly he’s not that interested either.
Elizabeth
So that’s all like, you should do this so I don’t have to. Now, the Eliza project, that’s a different category of sort of like you have an interest in something sparks your creativity and it’s like, Hey, you could do it if she doesn’t want to, you could do it, or you could also do it and find it really fun and satisfying.
Gretchen
Yes, you’re right. So we might call that one camp could be assignment, whereas I want somebody to do this, so I’m assigning it to you. The home repair, the grilling. And then one is wish fulfillment. I would like to do this, so I will encourage you to do it. And I think that’s something that people often do with children, or maybe it’s something that maybe you don’t want to do now.
Gretchen
But as a child you would have wished for like lessons or camp where it’s like, I want to do this or at one time I wanted to do this. And so I will encourage you to do it even if you don’t seem to have any interest in it yourself. So right, there’s assignment and wish fulfillment. Yes, it’s interesting.
Gretchen
But so here’s the thing, and maybe this is kind of how it ties into the know yourself better is I do think that for the sake of happiness, it’s very important to understand why we want something. Why we want somebody to do something and what we really want. Because very it’s so easy to displace emotions. Jealousy, wish, anger, resentment, just sheer desire not to do something.
Gretchen
And if you dress it up in a lot of things, it’s very confusing. So if I kept saying to Jamie, Well, I think this would really enrich your life and it would be so hand you would get so much satisfaction from being able to use your hands and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then being like, Oh, if you’re I’m trying to do something thoughtful for him, why is he so resentful of all my attempts to be considerate?
Gretchen
What I could fool him and I could even more be fooling myself, whereas in fact, I don’t want to be bothered to have to deal with it even by calling a plumber. I would like him just to fix it. And then he’s like, Yeah, me too. You know, I’ll flip you for it, right? Yeah, that’s just a more honest and straightforward way.
Gretchen
And then you don’t get into this thing where you get very confused by a fog of explanation that is actually not real.
Elizabeth
Yes. Understanding why you’re encouraging someone. Yes. And I do think it’s really interesting how sometimes it’s because it’s a burden. But then sometimes it’s something you really want to do, but you maybe feel it’s not your place to do it for whatever reason, like the picture project. So. Right. As always, if you can figure out the problem, then you can get to the next step. Right?
Gretchen
Because if you’re like, Well, I keep encouraging my daughter to take ice skating lessons. I don’t understand. When I was little, I would have love for my parents to have offered me. And then you have all this for them and it’s like, Well, maybe you should take ice skating lessons now. Yeah, I think we will be very interested to hear what people say.
Gretchen
Do you fall into the assignment category? Do you fall into the wish fulfillment category? What are the things that you encourage others to do, and would you do them yourself? Because Elisabeth, truth be told, I am not going to take that home repair class.
Elizabeth
I think it’s safe to say Jamie is also probably not going to take the home repair class.
Gretchen
I don’t think it’s in our future, but at least now we have clarity on the subject. Let us know if you tried this at home and how doing for yourself, what you’ve encouraged others to do works for you. Let us know on Instagram Tik Tok. Twitter, Facebook. Drop us an email at podcast@gretchenrubin.com. Or as always, you can go to the show notes.
Gretchen
This is happiercast.com/427 for everything related to this episode.
Elizabeth
Coming up, we’ve got a networking happiness hack. But first, this break. All right, grads, we are back with the Happiness Hack. And this week we’ve got something you thought of after our conversation with Michael Melchior in episode 424.
[Music]
Gretchen
Yeah, So we were talking to Michael about networking and how it’s incredibly important for our success in life and in career, but it can be awkward and that sometimes one of the reasons his book is so helpful is it gives you a lot of concrete approaches to how to network in a way that feels more comfortable. And I realized that I have hit on a hack myself, so I want to share it with people.
Gretchen
And now this is a hack that may not apply to some people in their careers. Elizabeth I’ll be curious to hear if it applies to you. So in my work, often I will meet people who I really, really like who sort of do something that’s along the lines of something I do. They’re a writer, they have a newsletter, they have a podcast.
Gretchen
You know, they create products like there’s all different kinds of ways and we meet each other in some context, and I want to follow up with them. And I know that one question that they will have is does Gretchen want to be friends or does Gretchen want to talk work? And the fact is maybe I would like to be their friend, but this uncertainty I think, makes people a little bit uncomfortable.
Gretchen
And I know that because that happens to me sometimes where somebody and I’m like, Do you want to be friends? Or are we talking business? Because I’m having to do either, but I kind of want to know what’s going on here. So what I do now to deal with that is let’s say I’m following up I meet somebody, I’m following up with them.
Gretchen
I say I love to talk shop and I would love to talk shop with you. If you love to talk shop, let’s get coffee. Let’s get lunch. Because then they can be like, Oh, I don’t love to talk shop because some people don’t love to talk shop, but usually they say, Oh, I love to talk shop, let’s do it, let’s dive into whatever.
Gretchen
But then we know the context of our meeting because otherwise, if somebody wants to be friends, it can feel very rude to just focus it on work. But if you want to get to work, it can feel strange to be like, Oh, let’s have all this other conversation. I just find it awkward. I just want to know what we’re doing.
Gretchen
And I find that talking shop in this playful way is a good way to just establish my expectations and then they can agree to it or not.
Elizabeth
Yeah, Gretch, I agree. I think it’s just clarity is nice. And what I love about the idea of asking someone if they want to talk shop is that it allows it to go either way. You can meet someone and talk shop and then find out you have so much in common. Yes. And a friendship can grow. But if friendship doesn’t need to grow, Yes.
Elizabeth
So I think that is really valuable. And then the person knows why you’re bringing them there and also puts them in the right frame of mind.
Gretchen
I think you’re right. I think it’s just the clarity, because when you have clarity, then the relationship can build and build and build. But if people are just uncertain, then that can get in the way. And I think also if you are anticipating that someone might feel awkward, then it might make you less likely to reach out. Whereas you’re like, Oh, this is kind of an easy way for me to explain myself.
Gretchen
And talking shop has like whimsical, lighthearted air where it feels like somebody is like, Oh my gosh, I really do not like to talk shop. Then it’s like, okay, that doesn’t hurt my feelings.
Elizabeth
Yes, exactly. It gives them an out and gives you an in.
Gretchen
Oh, and listen is just a total non sequitur. But I want to mention it to people. Mother’s Day, if you want to bookplate for Mother’s Day, send it in, because these are actual book plates that I mail. And so there is a little bit of turnaround time and the day is coming. And so if you want it for yourself, for a mother in your life, for anybody, go to happiercast.com/bookplate to request it.
Gretchen
And this is U.S. and Canada only. I am sorry. That is because of mailing. But now for the know yourself better question and we have two. We’ve got the regular one and then a bonus throw in one. And this was one that came up recently. Elizabeth, we talked about it way in the past, but people started talking about it on social media and they’re very intrigued by it, which is, are you a finisher or an opener?
Elizabeth
Yeah. So explain the difference. Although I think people will instinctively get the difference.
Gretchen
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s literally and metaphorically true. So finishers are people who love to finish. They love to use the last bit of toothpaste in the tube. I’m a finisher and I got great satisfaction when we actually wore holes in our stairway carpeting because I’m like, we really, really wore it out. We finished it. And they also loved the finish projects.
Gretchen
They get very excited about crossing something off the list, handing something in, shipping something. They get a lot of satisfaction out of finishing. And then openers are people who love to open, so they love to crack open a new box of cereal or they love to get a new hair product and started. And with projects they can get very excited, like the opening, the early stages of something, the possibilities, the setting things up is very exciting to them.
Gretchen
And you know, obviously we can all be a little bit of both and there’s strengths to both, but it’s helpful to know do you lean towards finisher or do you lean towards opener?
Elizabeth
Well, Gretch, I know you are a finisher for sure. Yes, you are the ultimate finisher.
Gretchen
I’m a finisher. How about you?
Elizabeth
Well, I think for me, with anything that’s physical, I am a finisher. So anything like finishing a tube of toothpaste or wearing out the rug like you were saying, I’m a finisher. But I do think with projects, one of my weaknesses is being an opener. And that’s because I feel like the a lot of the fun parts right at the beginning, at least in television, that’s when you’re brainstorming and having fun and no one’s giving you notes.
Elizabeth
Yeah, it’s and it’s fun. So I do finish, but that’s where I need the accountability. The Obliger part to kick in the opener in me can open a project, but I need the accountability to finish it.
Gretchen
But see, that’s fascinating that it could be different depending on the context in which this comes up. So here’s what to me seems like there’s positives for both finisher and opener, but it seems to me like these are the downsides. So see, if you agree, it seems like the downside of finishers of being a finisher and I experienced this myself, is that sometimes you’re so eager to finish that you rush to the end that you’re sort of like it’s just going to feel so good to get this off my plate that maybe you don’t keep up the quest for excellence, or maybe you don’t let things take as long as they need to take because
Gretchen
you just want to get it over the finish line. Or on the other side. You’re too conservative about starting something because you’re like, If I can’t see all the way to the finish line and know that I’m going to carry it across the finish line, well, I don’t want to start because I know it’s going to be very, very painful for me to leave something unfinished so it can make you too conservative.
Gretchen
And then with openers, sometimes they have too many open loops. They’re not getting something to that finish line because they love starting. And so they get distracted like they’re doing the slog, they’re doing the long work. And then something else is calling. I remember talking to somebody who was an academic and who was an opener and saying, like, I have so many half written articles in my drawer because I love starting.
Gretchen
I get so excited about an idea, but then I don’t get the satisfaction of finishing it because in the end, if you start something, you probably want to finish it, or at least you want to mindfully decide not to continue it. You don’t want to just feel like you keep getting distracted by opening and opening an opening. And same thing with physical things.
Gretchen
You can get surrounded by a bunch of things that are half used up, and that’s kind of a bad feeling.
Elizabeth
Yeah, that’s how I think of Ann Patchett. Gretchen, a writer we both love, who says one of her rules is that she has to finish the book she’s working on before she starts a new one, because she said yes, I’m working on a book. I always decide it’s not the right book to be writing. Yeah, then I know that feeling.
Gretchen
That’s exactly right. No. Right. So you don’t let yourself have the joy of doing it. Okay. So it would be really interesting to see what people’s reflections are and finishers and openers. I feel like I’m a finisher mostly, and it sounds like you’re a mix. So here’s the drive by. Know yourself better. I think this is just one that’s more for fun.
Gretchen
So this came. I’m just doing an Instagram live with Melissa Urban, who, you know, love Melissa Urban’s work. She just wrote the Book of Boundaries and she asked me if you were going to go to a desert island and you could only bring music or books, what would you bring? And I was like, One second. I’m like, That is not even a choice.
Gretchen
I would bring books for sure. She said it would take her a week to decide. How about you, Elizabeth? Is that an easy choice or a hard choice? I think I can predict your answer.
Elizabeth
Easy books, Yes. Yeah, for sure.
Gretchen
But for sure. For sure. Okay. But I think it’s an interesting question. The next time I get together with a group of friends I want to ask.
Elizabeth
I bet a lot of people will say music.
Gretchen
I bet a lot of people will. All right.
Elizabeth
Coming up, Gretchen’s got, what I believe is a repeat demerits but first, this break. Okay, Gretch, it is time for demerits and gold stars, and this week you’re up with a happiness demerit.
[Music]
Gretchen
I feel like all my demerits are repeat demerits, which may be a suggesting that I am not evolving as rapidly as I would like. So, anyway, but, you know, it helps to give a demerit. Okay, so my demerit is snapping. This is one of my you know, if you read Little Women, Marmee is always talking about the bosom enemy.
Gretchen
Snapping is definitely one of my bosom enemies. I just just this this sharp snapping talk which I have worked on and worked on and worked on. I’m definitely better, but I still do it. And so, of course, because of everything related to the book and the tour and like a lot of things going on, it makes me irritable.
Gretchen
So I’ve been doing all these things to try to manage myself and my mantras and all my practices, and I’m doing it so probably better than I would be if I just let myself run wild. But I’m snapping. And here’s an example. Okay? One of the things about me is, you know, this is in the way that I look.
Gretchen
I look very corporate. I was once at a party where everybody was supposed to guess what everybody, this was a terrible idea. Guess what everybody else does for a living. Everybody guessed that I worked at a bank. I was literally the only person who worked in the creative professions and about everybody else, they were like, Oh, you’re this, you’re that, me I’m like, yeah.
Gretchen
Okay. So I look very corporate and I don’t want to look very corporate because I am not in that field and that’s not my vibe. So that’s the back story. So I got a new outfit for my book tour, these red pants with this red sweater and shoes. And I heading out to go to an event. And Jamie looks at me and Jamie almost never comments on my appearance.
Gretchen
Maybe this is a clue why. Almost never comments on my appearance. And he goes, Oh, you look very businesslike. I was like, Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? That is exactly the opposite of what I’m going for. I’m writing a book about life in five senses. Here I am wearing colors. I’m trying to look playful and whimsical, and it’s like I’m the color of ketchup, you know, elicit.
Gretchen
You gave me my, my, my ketchup T-shirt. It’s exactly the same color of ketchup. I was like, This is so fun. And he never comments on my appearance.
Elizabeth
I was just like, funny.
Gretchen
Are you kidding me? And then, of course, he really, really wanted to take it back. I would. It was just, oh, stomping around.
Elizabeth
That is so funny.
Gretchen
I still love the outfit. I will wear it with joy. I will manifest my ketchup love. But it was funny. And I did snap it. And then. Then we hugged and it was okay.
Elizabeth
Well, here’s what I will say about your snapping. It’s very predictable, which makes it sting less because.
Gretchen
Okay, that’s good. Because you’re like, How can I take this personally? Yeah, we.
Elizabeth
Know it’s not personal.
Gretchen
Well Elizabeth, take us up. What’s your gold star?
Elizabeth
Okay, Gretchen, I want to give a gold star to a TV writer that I know. She’s a friendly acquaintance of mine. I’ve known her many years, and she’s been working with a child in the foster care system. And I just want to give her a gold star because it’s a very arduous system to sort of navigate. And she’s handling it and she’s putting her all into it.
Elizabeth
And, you know, it can be very painful and frustrating and also very rewarding. It’s really a roller coaster, and I just want to give her a gold star for navigating that and also pointing out to those of us around her sort of what’s involved, because it’s been extremely educational for me. I’m learning a lot. Right.
Gretchen
Right. Well, Gold Star, that’s such important work. Gold Star to her. That’s wonderful. The resources this week, because we’re going to be doing Life in Five Senses for the book club at the end of May. If you want to go straight to the discussion guide, if you go to happiercast.com/discuss5senses and that’s the numeral five, don’t spell it out.
Gretchen
happiercast.com/discuss5senses that will take you right to the discussion guide if you’re reading it with a different book group or if you want to just be thinking about it as you read. I love creating discussion guides, so I put I put a lot of work into that. And speaking of reading, Elizabeth, what are you reading?
Elizabeth
I am reading Rock, Paper, Scissors by Alice Feeny.
Gretchen
And I am reading The Morning Star by Karl Ove Knausgard. And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Whatever you’re encouraging others to do, consider doing yourselves. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Elizabeth
Thanks to our executive producer, Chuck Reed and everyone at Canes13. Get in touch. Gretchen’s on Instagram and Tik Tok at @gretchenrubin and I’m on Instagram at @lizcraft. Our email address is podcast@gretchenrubin.com.
Gretchen
And if you like this show, you know what to do. Please recommend us to a friend. That is how people find our show and rate, review, and follow us wherever you listen to your podcast.
Elizabeth
Until next week. I’m Elizabeth Craft.
Gretchen
And I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
[Music]
Elizabeth
So Gretch, are you waving at people cause you feel like you’re waving a lot with your one word theme and being on the tour?
Gretchen
I feel like I am sort of actually waving, but then in my mind, I’m waving a lot because I’m meeting so many people and it’s so fun. You know, I love meeting listeners and readers in person, so it’s really fun. Maybe I should actually, like, do a deliberate wave from the stage for the people who are podcast listeners who know.
Elizabeth
Everything about the.
Gretchen
Word. Yes, I should. And I’ll say like, Hey, and if you’re a Happier listener, you know why I’m doing it. That could be fun.
Elizabeth
Yes, I love that. And also, people in our my Facebook group are just always now pointing out things that have that wave painting on them.
Gretchen
It is so much fun. It is everywhere and in every iteration it’s I just saw somebody today wearing a T-shirt with it and it was fantastic. It’s so cool.
[Music]
Gretchen
From the Onward Project.