Update
I’m counting down to publication of my new book, Life in Five Senses. It hits the shelves on April 18.
To celebrate, on April 14, I’m kicking off my book launch early with “Five-Senses Friday.” Throughout the day, on social media, I’ll share tips for engaging with the senses, give away signed books as well as a Five-Senses Adventure Pack, and re-share posts about the book. Plus, I’ll be hosting a handful of social media live-streams, including one with special guest Melissa Urban. Find me on Instagram for details.
Want a free, personalized, signed bookplate for Mother’s Day — or any reason? Request here. (U.S. and Canada only.)
Try This at Home
Use touch when talk is tough.
Happiness Hack
When trying on clothes, take a moment to shut your eyes and concentrate on the feel of the item. Does it feel too tight, too loose, too scratchy, too stiff, too heavy? By closing your eyes, you remove the possibility of being distracted by the way the item looks.
We mention the “What’s Your Neglected Sense?” quiz.
Deep Dive into Answers for Questioners
In episode 422 we read two questions from Questioners — one who was feeling annoyed by persistent questioning, and one who was feeling annoyed by arbitrary deadlines and demands.
Here, we discuss some answers from Questioners for those Questioners.
Don’t know if you’re a Questioner, Obliger, Upholder, or Rebel? Take the free, quick “Four Tendencies” quiz here. More than three million people have taken the quiz!
Listener Question
A listener asks how to handle a situation where family members don’t restrain their two friendly but boisterous dogs who frighten his four-year-old daughter.
Demerits & Gold Stars
- Gretchen’s Demerit: I continue to write down reminders on disorganized scraps of paper.
- Elizabeth’s Gold Star: She gives a gold star to her son Jack for making the most of his school trip to Washington, D.C.
Resources
On my site, you can find out lots of information about my new book, Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and Into the World read an excerpt, find links to retailers, read a description, pre-order to receive the five fun bonus videos.
What we’re reading
425
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to Happier. A podcast where we talk about how to become happier. This week, as part of our countdown to the publication of my book, Life in Five Senses, we’ll talk about how we can use the sense of touch when talk is tough and why I now shut my eyes in a store dressing room. I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, the five senses and human nature.
[Music]
Gretchen
I’m in my little home office in New York City, and joining me today from Los Angeles is my sister, Elizabeth Craft, who sometimes calls me her happiness bully.
Elizabeth
That’s me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer living in L.A. and Gretch, when I say that, I say it with the utmost appreciation. I’m glad you’re my happiness bully.
Gretchen
That’s the spirit. I want to remind everybody. Yes, indeed, my book, Life in five Senses, is going to hit the shelves on April 18th, as we are want to say, preorder early and often. Those preorders really matter so much. So if you are listening to this before the book comes out, please preorder it. If you’re listening to it after the book comes out.
Gretchen
Go ahead and order it anyway. I really do appreciate it. Order early and often. And also because we talk often here on the podcast about using specific dates as a catalyst for reflection or action. And it’s often fun when that date has a catchy name. Like July 2nd is halfway day. So on April 14th, the Friday before my book comes out, I’m calling that Five Senses Friday as a day to kind of glory and appreciate our five senses.
Gretchen
And so all day on social media, I’ll be sharing top tips, giving away signed books. I have this super fun kind of adventure pack I’ve created that has all these toys and tools for having fun with your senses. Resharing posts. And I’ll be hosting some social media livestreams. So that is all coming up on April 14th, Five Senses Friday.
Gretchen
So join in the fun. And Gretch,
Elizabeth
You are offering bookplates, right? For people who want to buy the book for Mother’s Day?
Gretchen
Yes. Yeah. And if you’re going to do that, you might go ahead and order it now. Request it now, because May 1st is really the last day where I can make sure that I can turn this around and get it to you by Mother’s Day so you can get that at happiercast.com/bookplate. That’s where you can request the name that you want
Gretchen
personalized, the mailing address. These are actually things I will mail to you. And that’s what I’m sorry. I can only do this for US and Canada because of mailing. And feel free to ask for as many as you like within reason. I’m happy to do that for any gift Mother’s Day or for any reason or for yourself.
Gretchen
I love sending people bookplates.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Gretch, I can’t believe we’re already so close to your pub day. That seemed so far in the future. And now it’s.
Gretchen
Here so far and then so near the same time. So this week our Try This at Home tip is to use touch when talk is tough.
Elizabeth
Okay, Well, you know, I love alliteration, Gretch. So I love this. Explain what it means.
Gretchen
Okay. So we’re talking about the sense of touch. And of course, we are talking about appropriate touch. So this is welcome touch, appropriate touch. And one of the really fascinating things about the sense of touch is we sometimes overlook the sense of touch, but it’s extremely, extremely important. For one thing, babies don’t develop properly without touch. And babies who get skin-to-skin contact gain weight more quickly.
Gretchen
They sleep better, cry less, get fewer infections. Elizabeth, I don’t know if you remember this, but, you know, Eliza was born early and I would do this thing they call kangaroo care, where I would go into the neonatal intensive care unit every morning and I would scrub in. Then I would pull up my shirt and I would literally hold her against my bare skin.
Gretchen
Wow. So we had skin to skin contact, and it really did feel like I was pouring my life force into her in kind of this mystical way. So that’s for babies. But that is also true for adults that it can help to lower stress, blood pressure, pain, helps our immune system in mood. It can help us sleep better because it can release natural opiates in the brain.
Gretchen
This is why things like massage are often associated with health and comfort and pain relief. There’s just something really special about the human touch.
Elizabeth
Totally agree with all of that. And so what is the idea of touching when talk is tough?
Gretchen
This is what I found out when I was experimenting with the sense of touch. If you’re touching someone while you’re having a difficult conversation, it just it lowers the stress, gives you a kind of more tender atmosphere. It just changes the nature of the encounter. So the way I use it, there are tough conversations where it’s like painful, but then they’re also tough conversations where they’re irritating.
Gretchen
So, for instance, when Jamie and I are having a conversation about scheduling this, first of all, we procrastinate forever as long as we can, then we force ourselves to do it, and then we’re just bickering with each other and we just get annoyed. And I realize if I have my hand on his back or my hand on his arm or even our knees are touching, it just takes the tension down.
Gretchen
It just warms up the encounter.
Elizabeth
That’s so interesting. I totally see that and I feel like I’ve done that instinctively sometimes. Yes. When especially when you want to say, Look, I’m not trying to be a jerk here, but I just need to talk about this.
Gretchen
Even though I know it’s going to be painfully annoying to you. Yeah.
Elizabeth
Yeah. I could see this would work with kids, too. If you have to talk to them about something you know they don’t want to talk about. Although I will say kids also sometimes don’t want to be touched, right? Sometimes they’re like, Don’t touch me. So I think it depends on where they are in their development.
Gretchen
Now, it’s definitely something you want to be sensitive to. And like it’s a tool that if it’s not working, don’t force it, because clearly you’re sensing that it’s making things worse, not better. Yes and no tool fits every hand. But I think it’s very is true, you know, of the five love languages, Jamie’s is physical touch. And so maybe it’s particularly useful with him because he is somebody who really thrives on that.
Gretchen
But as you say, it’s an as you do it instinctively. And it’s good to know that it’s a tool that is something to consider. But here’s a funny thing. So I was talking to Lori Gottlieb. You know, she wrote that hugely bestselling book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. She writes a column in Atlantic Magazine. She has a podcast, Dear Therapist, and she counsels a lot of couples.
Gretchen
And she was saying that with one couple when they were fighting, she said, okay, you have to lie down on the floor. So you’re touching from top to bottom.
Elizabeth
Oh, my God.
Gretchen
So you’re lying next to each other like sardines, like so that you’re touching maximum touching. I thought it was funny because, first of all, it’s all that touching. So you’ve got the value of touching. And then I thought, I’m just trying to imagine the physical experience of yelling at someone while you are lying flat on the floor. I just feel like you couldn’t do it.
Gretchen
I feel like it’s almost impossible, she said. It’s true. Like when people start to yell, like they will rise up and you’re like, No, no, no. go lie down.
Elizabeth
That’s funny.
Gretchen
Isn’t that funny? It’s just incompatible.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And I’m just thinking with the touch, it’s also good for the person doing the touching because, say you are angry, touching the person you love can remind you that you love them. And to be more gentle, maybe depending on what the conversation is.
Gretchen
No, you’re exactly. You’re exactly right. It flows both ways. And this is a thing often we think that we act because of the way we feel. But in fact research shows we feel because of the way we act. So if you act in a loving, tender, gentle way, you will begin to have more gentle, loving, tender thoughts because sometimes people are, well, I’ll wait and behave that way when that’s how I feel.
Gretchen
It’s like, no, consciously change your actions, which is much more within our conscious control, what our actions are, and then your feelings and emotions follow. So you’re exactly right. This might work better on the person deciding to do it even than on the person receiving it. Either way, yes, it’s a great try this at home to just have in your tool kits.
Elizabeth
And once again, this is a thing for home. Never for the workplace.
Gretchen
Yes. Yes. This is a appropriate welcome touch. Yeah, absolutely. So let us know if you do try this at home and how using touch when talk is tough works for you. Let us know on Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, Facebook, drop us an email at podcast@gretchenrubin.com. Or as always you can go to a happiercast.com.
Gretchen
This is episode 425. So it’s happiercast.com/425 for anything related to this episode.
Elizabeth
Coming up, Gretchen has a dressing room happiness hack, but first this break. Okay, Gretch. Time for this week’s Happiness Hack. And this is something that once you said it to me, seemed obvious, but I never would have thought of it.
[Music]
Gretchen
Okay, I’m so excited about this hack. All right, so on the subject of touch, when I was writing Life in Five Senses, I started out by thinking that touch was one of my neglected senses. And if you want to know your neglected sense, you can just go to gretchenrubin.com/quiz and we’ll tell you you’re neglected sense.
Gretchen
So I thought I did neglect touch it turns out I’m wildly attentive to touch I’m so sensitive to touch and I had no idea So that just shows you how up in my head I was. So I was looking in my closet and in my drawers as I do sometimes that I was like, Why is it that sometimes I buy clothes that I think that I like, but that I never end up wearing them?
Gretchen
Right. This is the big question. Why did we like something enough to buy it? But then somehow we never feel like putting it on. And I realize that there was a whole class of things that I would buy because I liked the way they looked. But then I didn’t wear them because I didn’t like the way they felt.
Gretchen
In particular, there were all these polished cotton Button-Down blouses that I thought look great, and yet I never wanted to put them on. And I realized it’s because I don’t like the way they felt. So why did I buy them? Well, and this makes sense just in general, in human nature, we are hardwired we have more wiring for sight.
Gretchen
It takes up more real estate in the brain. And when there is a conflict among senses, sight usually trumps. Here comes the hack. I realized that for me, I’m in a dressing room. I’m trying something on. I like the way it looks. Sight trumps touch. I buy it, then I get home and then over time, I’m like, Ooh, I don’t like the way that feels.
Gretchen
So my hack is now and I just did this recently, but I go into a dressing room and I’m thinking about buying something. I take a minute, I close my eyes and I just move my body around and feel it is. Does it feel stretchy. Does it feel stiff? Is there something about it that is turning me off, or do I like the way it feels?
Gretchen
Is it too heavy? Is it scratchy? Because too often I’ve bought something that looked good, but then in the end the touch will prevail. The site will trump in the moment, but then in the end, if I don’t like the way it feels, I won’t wear it well.
Elizabeth
I think this is a great hack. I am going to start doing this when I try things on because I know I’ve done the same exact thing.
Gretchen
Yeah, and it’s just so easy. Just take a minute, shut your eyes and really think about it. This is probably true for shoes too, because how.
Elizabeth
Often.
Gretchen
Do you buy a pair of shoes.
Elizabeth
Oh yes, for shoes!
Gretchen
And you’re like, you just convince yourself because you love them. And then you’re like, Oh, I can’t. I can’t even put them on for 20 minutes.
Elizabeth
Yeah, yeah. Shoes, definitely.
Gretchen
Yeah. You’re walking around in the shoe department. So anyway, and I just used it the other day. I think the trick of this one is remembering to do it when you’re in the dressing room. But. But it works really well, so I’m very excited.
Elizabeth
Easy, free and useful, Gretchen. And it will save money. So it actually saves you money.
Gretchen
Yes, that’s right. Yes, exactly. And now a deep dive into answers for Questioners. Back in episode 422, we had two questions from Questioners related to aspects of being a Questioner. And if you don’t know what we’re talking about, go to gretchenrubin.com/quiz. And there you can take the Four Tendencies quiz and find out all about the Four Tendencies.
Gretchen
But we got really great answers for these questions or dilemmas.
Elizabeth
Yeah. So this is regarding how to handle the annoyance of being frequently questioned by family members. So Shelby said a bit of advice for your listener who hates fielding questions from her mother and grandmother. Curate your own highlights reel. List 3 to 5 current events in your life that you wouldn’t mind other people knowing about and offer them up to your mom and grandmother before they start peppering you with questions.
Elizabeth
And so when they do ask, so what’s new? You can respond. Let me give you my highlights. Real note. The highlights don’t have to be big. It could be that you’re trying a new shampoo or that you visited a part of your neighborhood recently. My wife and I often include silly bird spotting in our highlight reels. You could also include stories about other successes in your highlight reel.
Elizabeth
As long as you know the person is comfortable with you sharing. For example, a highlight can be I talked to Betty this week and she just announced she’s getting a promotion. Highlights don’t always have to be about you. If they continue to ask questions or nag for answers, you can set a gentle boundary by saying, Well, I already gave you the highlights reel for this week.
Elizabeth
You’ll have to wait till next time when I’ve got some new highlights to share. I love this idea.
Gretchen
I think this is a great idea because it’s giving them that engagement and that update that they’re craving and it’s giving you a way to shape it so that you’re giving what you want. You’re not just responding. And it is it’s kind of a funny, gentle way to be like, Well, wait till next week. Yeah, it’s elegant and it’s it’s also polite.
Gretchen
It’s not snarky, it’s not resistant. It allows you to do it in a way that feels right for you. Yeah.
Elizabeth
And then, Gretchen. A listener who prefers to remain anonymous had advice for the Questioner. Issues with arbitrary deadlines and billable hours. We had someone who was frustrated at work over these arbitrary deadlines and billable hours. So this listener says, as a former practicing lawyer and current law firm, administrator and full fledged Questioner, I had to roll my eyes a bit at the associate who thinks the billable hour is arbitrary and the deadlines are arbitrary.
Elizabeth
As a Questioner, I do understand it’s annoying for a partner to say something is due Monday and then not look at it until Friday for sure. But I totally agree with the spirit of Liz’s answer. Maybe it’s not about you and maybe it’s not arbitrary. Your supervisor has other deadlines, cases, pressures and emergencies they need to plan for, and their schedule may pivot and clients like efficient service.
Elizabeth
And the more you finish one thing, the more you can get on to the next and make more money. This is a business and that is the goal. Sure, if it’s overbroad or obnoxious, once you’ve proven your reliability, have a conversation to see if you can have more leeway. But have the boss and client in mind as an associate, it’s really not about you.
Elizabeth
When you are the partner and person, the client calls and managing other’s work, then you can make those business and economic decisions. I suspect they won’t feel so arbitrary then. And as for the billable hour, it is not arbitrary. It is economics. Again, imagine you run the show your hours, times your hourly rate, add up to your production and cover your salary benefits overhead, firm profit margins.
Elizabeth
They may be annoying, but they’re not arbitrary. They are the meat of how law firm economics work. Thinking like a future owner rather than an employee may help along the lines of where Gretchen went it’s not only the game you have to play, it’s the game for a reason. How a shareholder and owner of a business has to think.
Elizabeth
In my humble Questioner opinion, this Questioner needs to do some research to ask the why they need to question and listen and not just assume and might feel much differently. They still may not like it, but how a firm pays their salary is far from arbitrary in the firm’s eyes. Oh, well
Gretchen
This is interesting. So again, it’s like what seems arbitrary and inefficient to you might look very different from somebody else’s vantage point. So put yourself in their shoes and see if it starts to make sense.
Elizabeth
Yes.
Gretchen
And it sounds like this person has run into this objection before. You know that like people saying, like, why do we do things like this doesn’t make any sense. And it’s like, they’ve.
Elizabeth
Get to this answer. Yeah, yes, yes.
Gretchen
And as a Questioner, they probably don’t like being asked that question, but they’re willing to give the answer. That’s great. That’s great. Well, it reminds me of the proverb that you never take down a wall until you understand why it was put up and you never leave the gate open if you found it closed. It’s like you don’t try to change a system until you understand why a system was the way it was or, you know, you might get yourself into a big pickle.
Gretchen
So these were great answers to both these questioner questions which come up very frequently among Questioners, sort of in a different context. So that’s very, very helpful. Yes, those were listener answers. Now, for a listener question, this week’s question is on theme. It is related to touch.
Elizabeth
Yes. This comes from Peter. He says, I have a question about a family dynamic that’s causing some strife. My wife and I have one daughter who is four years old. We’re very close to my wife’s sister’s family who have two kids who are eight and ten years old. We live within a few hours drive of each other and we all get along great.
Elizabeth
The problem is the family’s two dogs. They are friendly, but they bark constantly, race around and jump on people. My daughter is terrified of them. My sister and brother in law know this, and before we come over, they always promise we’ll keep the dogs out of the way. But somehow the dogs are always getting loose. I suspect that this may be on purpose, or at least they’re not trying very hard.
Elizabeth
I think they think my daughter should get over this fear and that if she’s around, they’re wonderful dogs. She’ll relax. I think this is really the wrong way to handle it. At home, a neighbor has an elderly dog who’s very quiet, and my daughter has worked up her courage around him. She’ll sit next to him and pat his fur.
Elizabeth
It’s very sweet. But then when she’s around those rambunctious dogs who jump on her and try to lick her face, it frightens her all over again. And I’m worried that at a certain point she’ll just stay scared of dogs. We could say to family members, We’re not coming over to your place, but for a variety of reasons, that’s not a good solution for us.
Elizabeth
What can I do to help them understand why I really wish they wouldn’t do this?
Gretchen
I kind of feel like maybe this person should just forward the email to them because it just.
Elizabeth
It sums it up.
Gretchen
It sums it up and it’s not very accusatory. It’s like I get where they’re coming from, but this is why I don’t think it’s a good approach. It just it just is very convincing. I’m totally.
Elizabeth
Convinced. Yeah. I think really spelling out the issue as he’s done here. And then another thing is you might just need to get more assertive when you’re there and just as soon as the dogs are out, stand up and say, Oh, the dogs are out, how can I help you get them back? So she doesn’t get too scared?
Elizabeth
I mean, you just have to kind of be aggressive.
Gretchen
Well, and again, you don’t want her to associate their house with being afraid. So part of it is if you want a loving family that’s eager to come over you, that’s also part of it is like you want their house to seem like a fun place that you’re excited to go as a kid. But Elizabeth, though, I have to say I think I’m kind of guilty of a of a version of this.
Gretchen
I think that when you do have a dog, you do excuse bad behavior in your own dog because you’re sort of like, Oh, my dog is so wonderful. I get it. I mean, if someone’s like, scared of a dog, I will always say to people like, are you okay with dogs? This is making me realize that I think I need to show more consideration and just really be more aware of the fact.
Gretchen
I mean, because Barnaby is not very well-behaved, he doesn’t jump up on people, but he’ll come and he’ll steal food off your plate, right? And he’ll come, you know, lurk around you or whatever. And so I want to be more sensitive to this, especially with little kids.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And Gretchen, I mean, for sure are two Corgis, Nacho and Daisy jump and bark, and we are trying to train them, but it is not easy. And definitely I have also been guilty of this. So this is just a good reminder for all of us.
Gretchen
Yeah, well, and allergies. Allergies too, because I mean, you and you’re worse than I. I mean, we both have cat allergies, even though you had two cats, which I don’t understand, but we’ve got bad cat allergies and sometimes people are sort of like, Oh, my cats are wonderful. You won’t be allergic to my cat. I’m like, Believe me, I will be allergic to
Gretchen
Your cat. Like, let me know if there’s a cat around, because then I have to be very careful not to touch my eyes. All this, and I mean, it’s just this good reminder that when people are coming over, we just need to remember that not everybody experiences our pet the way we do. Yeah.
Elizabeth
It is the truth. So good luck, Peter.
Gretchen
Listeners, I think this is probably something that comes up in a lot of different situations. If you have any solutions that have worked for you, let us know and we will share them because, you know, kind of a lot of different variations. This is a common
Elizabeth
Problem for sure. Okay. Coming up, Gretchen has a repeat demerit. But first, this break. Okay, Gretch, it is time for demerits and gold stars, and this week you are up with a happiness demerit repeat.
[Music]
Gretchen
It’s a repeat. And maybe it’s actually. Maybe this is something that’s kind of like a stress tell where it’s like something that happens and I get stressed out because. So I will call this this scrap paper problem. So the scrap paper problem is that usually I keep a to do list on a piece of paper and I have no problem with that.
Gretchen
I really enjoy that. But at certain times I will just start writing down things on scraps of paper or what’s even worse on the back of a piece of paper. And so then it’s like very dangerous because what if you throw that piece of paper away and you don’t realize there’s something on the back or you overlook something because you forget to flip it over and these things just grow and grow and grow.
Gretchen
And then I feel overwhelmed because I’m just surrounded by these scraps of paper. And then I have to take time once I realize that I’m stressing me out and like, recopy it all and everything. And it’s just I don’t know why. It’s sort of just all of a sudden it’ll just explode out of control before I notice it.
Gretchen
So I’m trying. I want to just not get into this, but just keep the running list and then I won’t have to dig my way out of it. So I’m hoping that by giving myself the demerit, I will consciously tailor my behavior better.
Elizabeth
Yeah. My issue Gretch, is I will write down something on a page in a book I’m reading. Oh, and then once the book is close. I don’t know what book.
Gretchen
I don’t know what page.
Elizabeth
I don’t. I mean, why am I thinking that’s a good place? Or I write on a script and.
Gretchen
Same problem.
Elizabeth
I mean same problem. It’s just so I feel.
Gretchen
You know, it’s like it’s like, Oh, here’s this piece of paper right in front of me. All right, This is very important phone number right here. And then it’s like you flip the page and it’s like, could be anywhere.
Elizabeth
Yeah.
Gretchen
Okay. Well, it’s something to work on. Elizabeth, what is your Gold Star. Take us up. Well, I
Elizabeth
am giving a gold star to Jack, my son, my 13 year old this week for. Okay, well, let me explain. His whole class went on a trip to Washington, DC. Amazing trip where they saw all the monuments and went to all the museums. But I’m giving him a gold star because he was so nervous, understandably, before the trip for many reasons.
Elizabeth
It was very anxiety producing thing for him. But he went on the trip. He had a great time. He managed sort of all that it meant to be on a trip without any parents. Of course there are a lot of chaperons, but none of the parents were there and he was very responsible. We had given him money for the trip.
Elizabeth
He spent it very responsibly. And he had an amazing time. And I’m just so proud of that sort of developmental moment. Sure. He said at one point he got shaved ice and sat under the cherry blossom trees and thought about life. Oh! In an existential way. And I thought, I mean, that’s so great. So all the kids are great.
Elizabeth
Nobody got in trouble. They all, I think, had an amazing time. So Gold Star to him and can I say gold star to all the chaperons. Because. Yeah, yeah. Not easy to take. Yeah. An entire class of seventh graders to D.C..
Gretchen
Oh, yeah. Gold stars all around. Well, that’s a great milestone. That’s a wonder. He’ll remember that for the rest of his life. Oh, he will. The resources for this week. You know what’s coming? The book, Life in Five Senses is about to hit the shelves. If you want information about the book, if you want to read an excerpt, if you want links to retailers, if you want the bonus offer, the five videos that you can get if you preorder and so much more, go to happiercast.com/fivesenses and you will find so much there that will tantalize you about the delightful subject of tapping into our five senses.
Gretchen
So, Elizabeth, speaking of books, what are you reading?
Elizabeth
I am reading The River by Peter Heller.
Gretchen
And I’m reading Here’s the Kicker by Mike Sacks. And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember to try this at home. Use touch when talk is tough. Let us know if you tried it and if it worked for you.
Elizabeth
Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed and everyone at Cadence 13 Get in touch. Gretchen’s on Instagram and Tik Tok @gretchenrubin and I’m on Instagram @lizcraft. Our email address is podcast@gretchenrubin.com.
Gretchen
And if you like the show, please be sure to tell a friend that’s how most people discover our show.
Elizabeth
And so next week, I’m Elizabeth Craft.
Gretchen
And I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
[Music]
Gretchen
So, Elizabeth, I haven’t visited you at home since you’ve had two corgis. And so when I visit for my book tour, I’m very interested to see what the experience of your home is like with your two dogs running around.
Elizabeth
Oh, my gosh, Gretch. I feel like they’re getting their behaviors going backwards, so. Oh, we’re going to have to really try to keep them in control when you’re here. You’re going to some high pitched barking.
Gretchen
So when I came, Nacho basically ate your deck chair.
Elizabeth
That’s right. I remember.
Gretchen
Well, I can’t wait.
Elizabeth
They’re very cute.
[Music]
Gretchen
From The Onward Project.